L4DNation

Projects & Events => Still Not Dead Tournament => Topic started by: LioN on February 08, 2017, 08:29:53 am

Title: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: LioN on February 08, 2017, 08:29:53 am
Hello everyone, we've got a problem with scheduling with team Miracle Wipe. They insist on playing 1 game on EU server, but we find it absolutely unfair. Since G2 is signed up as a team from Russia and MW as an EU team we insist on home/away match. Moving to the rules: 4.1 says that only teams from the same region can play 1 game if there are no disagreements. Moreover 4.6 says that in case of disagreements match has to be played on the most suitable servers, which means home/away match for us in our particular case.

Here's screenshot of G2's players pings on European servers:
http://imgur.com/a/ZXXM5 (http://imgur.com/a/ZXXM5)

The actual ping of team MW on EU servers:
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/263849659130814543/FC3B33471E00FF1A9DB7AF13DA27042136A30932/ (http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/263849659130814543/FC3B33471E00FF1A9DB7AF13DA27042136A30932/)
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/263849659130812529/710994CF1FE977B683C067B9E0C312B9BD1783E8/ (http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/263849659130812529/710994CF1FE977B683C067B9E0C312B9BD1783E8/)
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/255968359782419419/5C0FE79797BE355A7A05F7986C4D461521B26E68/ (http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/255968359782419419/5C0FE79797BE355A7A05F7986C4D461521B26E68/)
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/366309245427029016/D52543881BF237B8F0CB6D42040BE40F0575DA81/ (http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/366309245427029016/D52543881BF237B8F0CB6D42040BE40F0575DA81/)

Rus servers:
http://imgur.com/a/AHc3A (http://imgur.com/a/AHc3A)

There is the whole stream of the match:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVX0msTHTlU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVX0msTHTlU)

Thank you for your attention!
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: sinclair on February 08, 2017, 08:53:07 am
the way i've always seen it is that one match should be used for common sense. a compromise of making the best of a bad situation. here are a few examples that i think it is applicable

- A US team, lets say east coast vs a asian team. The best of the bad situation would be to play one game on an LA server. sure the US team would get average 30-60 ping better than the asians but that is not the only thing to consider. The first thing to consider is whether both teams actually want to play with 300+ ping. Sure you would get a chance at green ping but is the 2nd game even playing? Whereas on the LA server both teams would get playable ping.

The 2nd to consider is time and scheduling. I want to first say that i am 200% for the rule that prohibits roster substitutions for home / away matches to manipulate the system. If to see who could win the game was an experiment, certainly one of the controls would be keeping the same players in. Of course things happen in life but unless you are like a dentist / comedian like bravo or a rocket chemicist like purple you probably have time to play two matches.

However the 3rd thing is not completely unrelated: time zones. Never once have i seen a US team play a euro or asian team and play at the time they want. Sure to ask the US team to play in the afternoon to play a euro team seems like the most plausible way, but when scheduling with an asian team with a 11 hour difference, it is ALWAYS the us team asked to play at 6-11am in the morning so the asian team can play at night like they are used to. Asking to play so early, especially against a US team with people all over the country is laughably demanding. It's the sole reason we've had to ff twice against two asian teams. W/ all the things ppl have to do gl trying to play those during the week. Say you are up early for some reason browsing steam, how often do u see ppl online, let alone playing scrims w/ 7 other ppl?



- While that case was oddly specific, let me lay out a general case for the 2nd one that will probably be more applicable to you. You are matched up against a team and common sense tells you because of how close these teams are that you should do one match. I looked at your pings and they all seem playable, on that server at least. I can't speak to the server scene in europe but maybe try a european server farther east? If not thats when the 2 match rule comes into play. Common sense would dictate this be one match. However, it is your RIGHT to demand to play one game on your preselected home server, as is theirs.

that's in the rules, thats your unalienable right. they can't take that away from you. just my point is sometimes it is better for the greater good to forfeit that right in the name of overall length of matches,  timezones, and what the pings would be on the away server if you did home / away. In your case, your timezones are probably close. pings on away server dont look too bad. I dont know why your ping is doubled your teammates but this is about the same as a LA team vs a NY team. if you can't compromise you should do home away, but you should at least try and compromise. if not then get an admin involved and say you are invoking your home / away right.
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: LioN on February 08, 2017, 09:22:22 am

1.I looked at your pings and they all seem playable, on that server at least.

2.I can't speak to the server scene in europe but maybe try a european server farther east?

3.just my point is sometimes it is better for the greater good to forfeit that right in the name of overall length of matches,  timezones,

4.I dont know why your ping is doubled your teammates

1.It's not about if pings are playable or not, it's about equality of the pings.

2.As far as I know there are servers only in France and Germany(not sure). 2 players from MW are from Germany, so they would have like 0 ping. But if we choose France to play we would get only worse ping for us.

3.If team signs up for the tournament the players must be prepared for the stuff like this.

4.Not every Russian lives in European part. Me and Mulder live in the Middle area. And since we're not ringers we can totally affect on the home/away format.
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: sinclair on February 08, 2017, 09:26:34 am
1.It's not about if ping are playable or not, it's about equality of pings.

2.As far as I know there are servers only in France and Germany(not sure). 2 players from MW are from Germany, so they would have like 0 ping. But if we choose France to play we would get only worse ping for us.

3.If team signes up for the tournament the players must be prepared for the stuff like this.

4.Not every Russian lives in European part. Me and Mulder live in the Middle area. And since we're not ringers we can totally affect on the home/away format.

it actually is about whether they are playable. in the name of compromise you are going to want to get them as close to equal as possible of course. i think my response was pretty fair. i said you should try and compromise first and if that can't be done to a fair extent then yeah you can advocate for your home / away right. i did not say that playing one game on their home server would be said compromise. i think you should always try and see if you can do one compromise match instead of two no matter where the teams are, there will always be a reason for it. its hard enough to schedule one match a week. so doing two is essentially twice is hard
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: Sanchez on February 08, 2017, 09:46:36 am
Ye tab ping vs ping check on console on god knows what server. L4dnation is not your dumb russian community.

This is eu in the latest cup games:
http://imgur.com/a/6Ev5J (http://imgur.com/a/6Ev5J)

I don't even bother about making one on RU cause everyone knows european (italian and portugal LOL) pings on RU and everyone knows your pings on RU.
Admins will decide the rest, not this retarded poll.

bye
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: sinclair on February 08, 2017, 09:56:03 am
sanchez makes a good point. if your screenshots serve to demonstrate the ping difference then they need to be controlled to be the same medium. in this case you used your console ping vs their tab pings. it is known that the pings in console tend to be lower than what they actually are in console. still sanchez, while i agree with you that this should probably be one match, it is G2's right to insist two matches. not allowing such sets a dangerous precedent of going against a concrete rule that should be there. it is up to the teams to apply common sense where that rule need not apply. but this is the l4d2 community so that might not always be there friend.
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: Peter Griefin on February 08, 2017, 09:59:20 am
G2 do this in every tournament - Selectively showing screenshots and then they choose the farthest server away giving them extremely low ping with the exception of Lion because he lives closer to China than EU.

Examples of real matches were ping was even on EU:

https://gyazo.com/3bccc965d61383d02979fb06080ff8c3

RU ping discrepancy:

https://gyazo.com/f8bce2add09a83e1fbbdde01e45dcaad

https://gyazo.com/1f72a6324bc1de44ac2bb89856421541

Not sure which server Lion got his screenshot from but when we played vs them, I was in Germany at the time and I had 100 ping to their server and I know that at least 2 of the MW players live in a similar area.

1 game on EU gives MW a negligible ping advantage.  2 games on Lion's home chinese server will give at least 2 or 3 of MW's team orange ping regardless of what he says.
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: Atreyu on February 08, 2017, 11:03:46 am
Lion do you really need to discuss this on the L4DNation platform?
We said that we'll let admins do their work.
We said we won't fight about that but now you try to get people on your side to put pressure on admins decision.

YOUR TEAM consists of at least 3 European players. RUSSIA IS NOT AN OWN CONTINENT
we basically play 2 matches just becaus of 1 Person ...  you.

We won't spend 3 hours playing a 2nd match just becaus of 1 Player.

What was about dusty with pubstars or everlasting with aniimu?
Should they play home/away against european teams as well?

Another argument is that your russian server (maybe thats just my opinion) have a real bad performance.
I checked X-Event #4 today with pingspikes from 70-102ms and Tickratedrops down to 30 - I'm always the guy with the lowest ping in my team.
Hornchen has ~10ms more and Sanchez and Pedro ~20-25ms more.

So why should we play on a russian server when your 3 teammates can easily play on an european server with 50-60ms?
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: Hoernchen on February 08, 2017, 11:48:41 am
Ugh not this again... will your teammate spam my profile again after you won with your ping advantage?
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: LioN on February 08, 2017, 12:10:54 pm
Ugh not this again... will your teammate spam my profile again after you won with your ping advantage?

No one of us expected such a stupid behaviour from you that time.
They were not in the good mood after the game :D
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: LioN on February 08, 2017, 12:26:36 pm
1.they choose the farthest server away giving them extremely low ping with the exception of Lion because he lives closer to China than EU.

2.Not sure which server Lion got his screenshot from

1.All of russian servers are located in Moscow. P.S. I live in Siberia ;D

2. Hotmess France.

If there were some servers besides French, Swedish for example, we could have played there. If you take a look at CS:GO scene you may probably notice that team from Germany or France always plays on Swedish or Netherlandish servers.
And finally what's the problem to simply follow the rules??
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: Pariah on February 08, 2017, 03:58:35 pm
Ugh not this again... will your teammate spam my profile again after you won with your ping advantage?



These guys saved a screenshot of a match we played against them in ~2015? We had decided we didn't care if we won or not since we were all taking a break from the game and therefore we played like fools and got beaten. They pull it out every few months as if it's indicative of something more than a lucky win against people who didn't care about the outcome.

Ok, I should talk about the topic at hand. So from what i've seen miracle wipe seem to be one of the most proactive teams in terms of playing single game matches whenever possible, I routinely see them playing a single game against Asian teams and whatnot. Therefore I do not believe that they would try to screw you over purely for a small advantage. The point that Atreyu makes about not changing server preference for a single player of the opposition team's roster is a valid one. Nobody forced you to join a team with people who live a few thousand miles from yourself and nobody should have to work around that problem either.

Another point is that whilst there's a small discrepancy in the pings in a single game on a European server, That discrepancy will be larger in the other direction if you were to play 1 game on Ru in addition to one game in Eu. I.e The gap between total pings now is smaller than it would be should the teams play home and away. The Russians get very low ping on the Russian servers but the routing for Europeans is terrible, Especially for Sanchez (Italy) and Pedro (Portugal) whom will probably both have ~100-150. It sucks for G2 that they have a player in Siberia but that's not MW's fault. This should be a single game on a European server in order to provide the most balanced tie.
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: High Cookie on February 08, 2017, 05:12:42 pm
you cunts dont know what high ping means
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: Snooze on February 08, 2017, 05:56:46 pm
Among my teammates i am the closest to Africa, so i play with 80ms in euro servers. However, i don't try to trick the other players for playing a game in my home server aswell.. One single game in EU is enough
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: aopk on February 09, 2017, 02:39:48 am
you cunts dont know what high ping means


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA AMEN

fucking euros and americans, no idea what geographical isolation even constitutes.




or the 45 celsius struggle with a shit pc rofl

Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: SickL4D3 on February 09, 2017, 08:41:50 am
I can do this one more time, Delete this message too xD

my first question will be adressed to Atreyu.
"YOUR TEAM consists of at least 3 European players. RUSSIA IS NOT AN OWN CONTINENT"
are you sure about that?
Ok my dear German friend today i will give you a free lesson.
German is a Europe you can check this right here - http://previews.123rf.com/images/willypd/willypd1204/willypd120400021/13066690-illustration-of-europe-map-with-flag-of-germany-from-1-july-2013-Stock-Vector.jpg (http://previews.123rf.com/images/willypd/willypd1204/willypd120400021/13066690-illustration-of-europe-map-with-flag-of-germany-from-1-july-2013-Stock-Vector.jpg)
now let's google how many countries in a europe union?
the answer is 28 and you can check this right here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union)
Also you need to know that Russia is a Eurasia 77% of Russia = Asia
You can check map of Russia right here - http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/commonwealth.jpg (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/commonwealth.jpg)

Second question is for your team.
And now let's count a distance between German and Russia (City's of my teammates)
From Moscow to German is a 2.100 Kilometer it's for me because i'm from Moscow ping 70-90 on europe
From Cherepovec to German is a 2.500 Kilometer - For WREGHQ ping 80-90 on europe
From Perm to German is a 3.600 Kilometer - For Mulder ping 100-110 on europe
From Krasnoyarsk to German is a 6.300 Kilometer HELLO 6.300 it's like from German to New York - For LioN ping 120-150 on europe
And for you it's will be like 10 max 20 ping on europe, is it fair?
also i dont understand why you break the rules? Moving to the rules: 4.1 says that only teams from the same region can play 1 game if there are no disagreements.
And why we have to schedule our game to day when you can play? why we have to schedule our game on time when you can play?

I Almost forgot, We sign-up as a RUSSIAN team not EUROPE. And our home server located in Russia
So good luck and have fun on our match where will be 2 games on European and on Russian server
And please, next time read the rules first before you sign-up, HF :)
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: SickL4D3 on February 09, 2017, 08:44:47 am
/del
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: sinclair on February 09, 2017, 08:57:53 am
lack of eu membership =/= not in europe
if that were the case then hasta la pasta daniel ur little island state is just that. its OWN CONTINENT.
we also dont need a geography lesson. the question is not how much of your state's land is in europe / asia, but where the members of your team live on said state.
+ we already saw that 3/4 of your team gets green ping in the server on multiple screenshots
tried to remain neutral but i really just want to see a miracle wipe on these guys
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: Atreyu on February 09, 2017, 12:02:43 pm
what the fuck did I just read?
when did I ever talk about European Union Memberships?

wow...

But no matter how dumb this thread is.. l4dnation has a new member with Sick... congratz.
Title: Re: G2 vs Miracle Wipe
Post by: Poochie on February 09, 2017, 02:20:20 pm
Quote
Captain - LioN [STEAM_0:1:23422352] [url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198007110433/[/url] ([url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198007110433/[/url])
Member - Mulder [STEAM_0:0:29835994] [url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198019937716/[/url] ([url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198019937716/[/url])
Member - Sick` [STEAM_0:1:80037042] [url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198120339813/[/url] ([url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198120339813/[/url])
Member - WREGHQ [STEAM_0:1:29571752] [url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198019409233/[/url] ([url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198019409233/[/url])
Member - `SnipE [STEAM_0:1:16929210] [url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197994124149/[/url] ([url]http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197994124149/[/url])


How about you just play with your fifth ?
Not gonna lie doing home/away just for one guy with orange ping would be stupid but you guys always try to pull that one off anyway.