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Messages - Dragon

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61
Videos & Media / Re: Classic frag videos
« on: January 21, 2014, 04:38:39 pm »
The frag vids I think of most are the ones from about the first generation (classic L4D1 era, followed by the arrival of L4D2). Even though they might have snips of T2s and other things being used, players like these simply just excelled over all others when everyone was fresh to the series and mastered the game quicker.

Left 4 Dead // Final Rage by kraljevo

There were quite a number of top players and sweet frag vids of theirs being churned out, but there are some stunning frags and sick tank play from Kraljevo here. Perhaps my favourite pick from the classic L4D1 era.


Jengamoose vol. 3


Jengamoose vol.5

Jengamoose I think had already quit L4D2 just before I began playing comp, but these videos I think are really impressive, considering that this was all done 4 years ago, and even nowadays you don't really see anyone except possibly a select few in the whole world, who can consistently perform around the same level. The fact that some of the skeets were made with T2 autoshotguns is made redundant as the former Austrian player was confident enough on most occasions to just find his shot and pull the trigger only once. Mix that confidence with an acute sense of awareness, it partly helped me show what was possible in the game and where to improve myself as a player.

62
News / Re: Equilibrium Cup #2
« on: December 17, 2013, 06:09:24 am »
SEMI-FINAL DRAWS AND CAMPAIGNS

Weeks 11 & 12 (December 16th - 29th)

The Parish (EQ 2.0)

Blood Harvest (EQ Retro)

Match 61: Team France vs nv-

Match 62: Wumbologists vs Team Carbon


We are aware that it is the week of Christmas next week, but based on all the circumstances of these semi-final matches, we believe that 2 weeks should be enough time to play within the schedule.

The losing teams of this round can play for 3rd place afterwards if they choose to, and on campaigns of their choice. If one team wants to play but the other doesn't, then the willing team will be given 3rd place. But if both teams don't care or don't want to play, then 3rd place will be automatically granted to whichever team lost their semi-final match to the eventual cup winners.

Thank you, and good luck to the final 4 teams! ;)

63
News / Re: Equilibrium Cup #2
« on: December 10, 2013, 06:34:41 am »
Team France vs Velocity vods

Part 1: http://www.twitch.tv/sidewaysbox/b/485928336 (picture starts appearing at 7:40)
Part 2: http://www.twitch.tv/sidewaysbox/b/485935676

Casters & Streamer: Myself, Battle & Sidewaysbox

Fra. - Vector, Razzor, Yosh, Grin

Vel. - Kekkeri, Sir, Check, Crox

64
Equilibrium / Re: Equilibrium 2.0
« on: December 08, 2013, 10:30:35 am »
EQ bonus seems pretty fucked on the Aus servers.

I had a game after the tank, the other team had 12% health bonus and 100% damage bonus. Apparently we didn't do any damage to them, to get them down to 12% health bonus.

Then we managed to incap 2 of them, their DB went down to 50%, but once they got picked up, it went back up to 100%.

It eventually did go to 90%, but it seemed to be for no reason.

The admin of the server assures me that EQ is best config and that it installed properly. If that is the case then it absolutely nothing to do with damage and is about as balanced as a config that gives out bonus based on player names.

Here is Demo: https://db.tt/yLgrpkTR

skip to about 23000-ish to see the double incap followed by 100% DB (and the map is Carried Off)

EDIT: I worked out what is wrong, after patching my server to the latest EQ (to remove the negative DB bug). It only counts damage on survivors after their first incap. As long as survivors take pills you can do 600 damage (the closest I got with bleed out was about 590) and the survivors will still have 100% "damage" bonus, lol.


I was asked to post here after the above game. At the very least, even if it is a functioning bonus system (which I'm dubious of), there is mass confusion over how it works, and I can't pick up any sort of consistency. This is on a server that Visor himself installed EQ on, so there's no question of it being installed incorrectly. After the first round of the above game, each of the survivors on temp health had been incapped once or twice (from memory I think two were probably incapped twice).

Amount of health they had: http://i2.minus.com/iBU6cxI4dKCkD.jpg
Their bonus: http://i1.minus.com/ibgzclSeY6asRp.jpg

I can't see how we could have done any more damage to them short of killing them, and yet the DB portion of their total bonus is sitting on ~87%. It's fairly frustrating approaching the end of the map seeing the DB sit on 100 percent and the HB close to zero, attacking temp health (because apparently attacking perm does nothing to DB) and still see the DB barely go down. They're essentially attacks that do nothing.

edit: damage taken after incap, gg next thread.


After reviewing the demo and the screenshots provided, there seems to be nothing inaccurate about the final bonus. It would help if it were at all possible to see the actual health bars and their state of perm/temp throughout the whole map to get a truly accurate gauge on what happened. But there were no incaps on the survivors until the 3rd attack away from the safe room (this was after the tank fight).

Everyone knows that when a survivor has any amount of temp health as well as perm, it's always the perm health that gets shredded first before temp, because that's how the vanilla health mechanics of the game work. Because there were no incaps until 3 attacks away from the safe room, then it stands to reason that the DB wouldn't be lowered until those 2 survivors were attacked again once they were back on their feet.

Although the drop down to 50% seems weird and something I've not seen before, Visor tells me that it subtracts the survivor(s) share of their DB whenever they are incapped/killed. When the !health cmd showed 50% DB, it coincides with 2 survivors lying on the ground incapped (and I presume when someone said "75%" it was because they probably typed !health themselves when there was only 1 survivor left on the ground). In that specific attack, coach took the first incap and it only took one or two ticks of smoker damage to incap him, whilst nick had 1 hp when a charger handed him his 1st incap.

The last 2 attacks before safe room barely did anything at all, the only moments that looked as though DB was being lowered was when nick ran through spit (!health cmd was used and the DB was down to about 180), and then he and coach (both on about 1-2 hp each) then went down again and were black and white, but that was the last attack. All survivors made the safe room, the DB was 174 as seen in the screenshot.

It's hard to tell what else happened to the survivors' health because the demos don't tell the entire story. But based on there being no incaps until late into the map and only minimal damage to temp health afterwards, it seems pretty accurate to me and Visor.



65
Ive seen terrible things with EQ. Like me and my team making it with only two green survivors full HP, no other survivors made it. They died. and their team making it with 4 survivors with a little over half health and we had more points.

The health of the 4 survivors, was it mostly perm or temp? Chances are that you played a game where the score system had yet to be updated with penalties to the bonus for survivors not reaching safe room, which now divides the remaining bonus by 25% for each dead survivor when the others reach safe room.

@Dragon:
I've admittedly not played a lot of games with DB based scoring. The reasons I prefer DB over HB (again this isn't based on any experimental or empirical evidence) is because I dislike the idea of survivors with no health sponging attacks, which I see as low skill play. In a DB scenario, survivors for the most part have to have their wits about them and actually shut down attacks without taking too much damage. Again though, I don't mean to reignite the whole DB vs. HB debate.

My issue with EQ is that, as infected, we can execute well coordinated attacks and the DB portion doesn't seem to go down at all. It seems rather sporadic. I understand that the HB portion of the bonus would go down, but if we're landing good attacks and inflicting damage, it seems counter intuitive to see the DB continue to sit at 100%.

Why would the DB (temp) go down before perm? You can see when holding down tab that a survivor's perm health is depleted first and then temp health in that order, if the survivor has some whilst they're capped. And because there is 133 temp health damage needed to deplete the DB value of the overall bonus, the first sponge/tampon will cost the same amount of bonus as attacking a survivor with perm health.

The only three differences between hybrid bonus and damage scoring are that damage scoring is literally calculated 1 bonus point for 1 hp on any map, damage scoring needs exactly the full value of a map's bonus in damage to go to 0 (compared to EQ which requires at least 533 total damage on every map for the same result and regardless of how many pills there are in a config) , and there is no division between perm and temp health. EQ's scoring system is a compromise: a combination of damage scoring with the classic and familiar feel of health bonus, where teams will still lose bonus equally for having a sponge/tampon at first, but you also need to target every survivor to bring down the bonus. But for everything else, they function the same, including perm hp needing to be depleted first before temp can be stripped.

66
Both Dragon and Visor have stated that EQ2.0 have both DB and HB, and it works quite well, but is that scoring system not completely broken? It's quite annoying seeing four survivors get to SR, all (or mostly all) with temp health and still having 75%+ of their total DB. I haven't actually looked at the code yet to see how its calculated, but it doesn't seem intuitive or even DB in the truest sense of the word.

I must admit I prefer DB over HB, but also see the value in having some form of HB factor in to the calculation. The last I spoke to Jacob, his implementation for PM4 seemed like a decent idea, with a small reward for each point of permanent health to encourage survivors making SR with perm health but also negating players with temp health sponging attacks all of the time.

EQ 2.0's scoring system is actually calculated more like DB than HB, except that each 1 hp of damage you do to the survivors costs 1 bonus x the map difficulty modifier. Although there is "HB" in it which consists of 75% of the bulk value of the total Hybrid Bonus, that and the 25% segment of DB both function in the same way. So to say it's broken would be to say that the concept of DB itself is broken, which you say you prefer over HB in terms of scoring systems. And in the games of PM4 beta that I've played and spectated with damage scoring, you can theoretically make the safe room with 0 perm health and tiny amounts of temp but with potentially anything from around 30-60% of the entire bonus on offer.

I don't know whether the system I saw in PM4 beta is the finished article, but I'm not seeing how "75%+" of a DB that's only 25% of the total bonus is such a major concern. If your concern is that survivors score too much bonus from the DB portion in EQ for small amounts of temp health, then it's because in both EQ 2.0 and PM4's damage scoring system, bleeding doesn't lower the bonus. It's a mindset that players used to HB associate with the tab health bars: if  their temp health is tiny, then their bonus should be tiny too. But one of the traits of DB is that it doesn't automatically lower bonus like HB does when survivors are bleeding. The only way the bonus is going to be lowered is via your direct input as SI.

EQ 2.0's Hybrid Bonus systems works like this with Dark Carnival 1 as an example:

Hybrid Bonus = Map Distance x 2 = 75% HB (perm) + 25% DB (temp) (DK1 = 400 Distance and 800 Hybrid Bonus (600 HB + 200 DB)

600 HB / 4 survivors = 150 HB per survivor

150 HB / 100 hp = 1.5 Hybrid Bonus per 1 hp


So when you count it all up, you have to do 400 damage on perm health, and 133 on temp on DK1 to bring the bonus down to 0, the notion being that if you take well over 500 damage as a team then you don't really deserve anything much in terms of bonus.

67
Full Godframes

Definitely agree with god frames for the spitter as its perhaps the one SI that requires the least amount of effort for a potential load of damage. Not sure about smoker + tank though. Other SI don't have godframes when it comes to capping a survivor and tank bringing in a hittable, plus the survivors have the choice of either shooting the tongue, m2ing the survivor or killing the smoker.

Noclip for Infected

I see the intention of it, but one could argue that this function would also award bad SI players and teams by making it really easy to get to positions they'd struggle to do in normal conditions, similar to how you said that removing godframes awards bad SI play and leaves the window wide open for timing. Infected ladders would become more irrelevant as they would only be used by the tank, commons and fleeing SI who try to stay alive after an attack.

Damage Bonus + Health Bonus + Time Bonus + Lowered Spawn timers slightly

Well as in EQ, we're already seeing HB + DB, as well as spawn timers at 16 seconds compared to 18 in pro mod so that's already functioning sufficiently. Time bonus though is a very tricky concept and something myself and Jahze mulled over briefly about 2 years ago. As already mentioned by nikeon, it wouldn't be popular on the basis that different teams play at different paces. Whilst I like the idea of something that addresses excessive baiting, enforcing such limits where all teams are required to play at only one pace and one style to succeed, it poses the danger of the game becoming too linear.

You also have to ask yourself: how exactly would you measure this time bonus? Is it calculated with a simple, static timer for all maps, or does it change slightly based on the distance and/or difficulty of the map? Does Team A get a static bonus for finishing a map 45 seconds quicker than Team B, or a bonus that equates to 45 seconds difference for that particular map? How much value would time bonus have in relation to HB + DB? Would Team A be rewarded more, less, or equally if they had lower HB + DB but finished 45 seconds ahead of Team B?

Jockeys have a choice to switch to hunter making it possible for two hunters. (Not two jockeys)

This might work for pro mod if it was ever implemented, but compared to the jockey and when given the option, the hunter is a classic choice of SI. I like the idea of 2 hunters, but give players the choice to do that and it would make the jockey look like the shy, awkward kid in the corner who no one talks to. Maybe it could work if a 2nd hunter was placed in the spawn rotation instead of being offered as a choice to make another SI obsolete and neglected?


Uzi limit 2 / shotgun limit 2

We see this already in EQ when the scout isn't around or isn't picked up, although there is no limit on shotguns. I like the idea and having seen it in EQ, it definitely makes games a little more interesting, but the only downside to this is that like the concept of time bonus, it enforces all teams to play one linear style. The vast majority of teams and players pick up what is most 'conventional' to them, which is why we see one shotgun + 3 smgs in pro mod 9 times out of 10.

But truthfully, a decent team can wreck through SI with any weapon rollout if they know what they're doing, even if you enforced 2 smgs and 2 shotguns 100% of the time. But with that done, you'd remove other factors such as teams willing to drop smgs if they believe that 3-4 shotguns will benefit them for a tank/event, as well as the utility player who likes to change between weapons as they advance through the map based on the layout and events further down the road.


Rock selector defaulted to 1 handed overhand on mouse 2.

Being used to the rock selection plugin already, this would be a very minor change at best, but I'm indifferent to it either way.


Readyup countdown lowered to 2 seconds

2 seconds or instantaneous, either works fine I guess.

Spectate glitches removed (such as getting boomer again if you spectate right after you die ). (Spectate limiting per round might fix this)

This was a problem in Europe when people saw mixes/pugs as serious business and started to spectate out to give their better players the tanks and abuse the tank lottery system in the process. Although if you're looking for a way to get around this without impeding on people who genuinely need to spectate out for a valid reason, how about only letting it work when the game is paused? (It should still work for spectators without a need to pause if they appear on the SI team's hud and need to !spectate)


Tank vote plugin added

This has been mentioned several times before and I honestly don't see this being much of a benefit, because first of all, it negates the whole point of the tank lottery system which was designed by Jahze to not only give everyone at least 1 tank spawn in a game, but also to make it so that playing tank and playing it at any point in any map was important to learn for all players, especially lesser experienced ones who need that experience in order to learn and grow as players. Once you start throwing in a vote for who gets a tank when and where, then players will only play tanks on 'their maps' which I don't think is ideal. Teams will vote for their best rock tank for a map that allows that the most, another type of map could be saved for the player with the highest ping (or longest arms). It might benefit teams in particular or friends who play with each other regularly enough to warrant it. But I think it would be detrimental to the community as a whole and learning how to play tank in only 1 or 2 maps of each campaign would effectively be dumbing down tank play in general.

68
General / Re: Dos =(
« on: November 14, 2013, 02:38:55 pm »
The gap between 'pubs' and 'comp players' is bridged by 'mixers', I feel. From my own experience I can say that by far most of the rotten apples can be found in the mix community. No clue whether there's a large overlap between them and those that 'visit' pubgames just to be rude and display baboon-ego-display-behavior, but I wouldn't be too surprised.

And this is why the community never grows, aside from the fact that the game is now 4 years old and is not as popular as the big games prowling the scene. When top teams and players run out of competition and get bored enough with the game to quit and find something else, it's the teams below them and possibly a few of the mixers who then have their moment in the sun. The only way to keep this cycle going is to introduce fresh blood, either by comp community members spreading the word to friends or mentoring groups advertising everywhere to attract new hopefuls.

But when certain players/mixers go for their moment of trolling/trash-talking in a vanilla pub, they are not doing the comp community any justice, in fact they're helping to bury it six feet under with their retarded behaviour. When trolling jackals go round pubs and do their work, the cycle is being halted and there is not as much 'input' to counter-balance the 'output' in the form of bored teams deciding to call it a day. It's not an easy task trying to alter first impressions in someone's mind of another person, thus why would anyone want to join a community where they're subjected to that? And these same offenders also complain that the community is running out of teams and players. The phrase "Don't shit where you eat" springs to mind!

This is why I've known almost straight after I made my entry into comp L4D2, why others I've talked to agree equally and I'm sure too that many other old-timers have stated it themselves, that this community is its own worst nightmare. Always has been, always will be and unless the culprits are called out for what they're doing or grow up and realise the consequences of their words and actions, then I will continue to hold my breath when L4D3 arrives.

69
Offtopic / Re: Real Life Pictures!
« on: November 04, 2013, 04:17:39 pm »
Yeah, it's crazy how carefree youngsters in Europe are with drinking compared to the age limit of 21 in the States. I remember an old friend of mine about a decade ago going to Turkey on holiday and getting served alcohol everywhere he went, he was 14 at that time. And for the truly insane, the United Kingdom is the only country in the world which has a minimum legal drinking age at home: if at home or at a friend's house and permitted by a parent or legal guardian, it's LEGAL for a 5 year-old kid to down some beer, vodka or whatever is on offer!

70
Offtopic / Re: Real Life Pictures!
« on: November 04, 2013, 03:29:14 pm »
What's the drinking age in Ibiza? I heard it was 26! Is this true?

The purchasing age is 18, but the minimum legal drinking age is 16 which is the same as mainland Spain. I think it varies in Europe a little, but it's funny watching French kids on school holidays who look 12 or 13, walking into shops and trying to buy beer and cigarettes at the counter.

71
News / Re: Equilibrium Cup #2
« on: November 04, 2013, 06:23:55 am »
ROUND 3 DRAWS AND CAMPAIGNS

First, I must apologise for derping on the announcement of Round 2 where I thought a week ahead and posted the wrong dates (credit to Icy for pointing that out last night, thanks man). Fortunately, the majority of the teams didn't realise and still played according to the intended schedule. For any who followed the actual dates, we are granting them what will also be Week 5 to complete their Round 2 matches, but I STRONGLY recommend you play them as soon as possible, because Round 3 is a round of custom campaigns!

Week 5 (4th - 10th November) - Warcelona (EQ 2.0) http://www.l4dmaps.com/details.php?file=12111
Week 6 (11th - 17th November) - Carried Off (EQ Retro) http://www.l4dmaps.com/details.php?file=6591

Note that in reading the rules, Carried Off is in the 2.0 map pool and Warcelona in Retro's; this is incorrect. What you see in bold text above, is what is to be played. And also be advised that if you notice anything unusual when testing out the custom campaigns, contact an admin about it immediately. Without further ado, the final group stage draws are:

Match 33: Death Penalty vs Velocity
Match 34: Cheer Up vs NrJ`

Match 35: Wumbologists vs MSI
Match 36: Velvetroom vs Northsiders

Match 37: Bazzinga vs Star Team
Match 38: Velle Vincere vs Undisclosed

Match 39: por que* vs Team [B$]
Match 40: Falonism* vs Pentakill

Match 41: nv- vs MiX Team
Match 42: TBD vs Sexy`

Match 43: Nameless* vs Les Touristes
Match 44: Splendid-Gaming vs Lost Boys

Match 45: GuardianS vs Team Anonymous
Match 46: Team Carbon* vs Homunculus

Match 47: Aim Shot vs Team France
Match 48: simp1ex vs Hangover

* = defwins handed to those teams

On a final note, I'd also like to remind teams to watch their own behaviour, especially in the wake of racist remarks and malicious trolling being directed at other teams in the last 2 weeks, as well as ignoring directives straight from the admins. A few teams are already on final warnings for a combination of these factors!

That is all. Thank you, and good luck to those fighting to be in the final 16!

72
News / Re: Equilibrium Cup #2
« on: October 20, 2013, 07:27:50 pm »
Round 2 has gone live, the selected campaigns are Hard Rain / Death Toll and the following draws are:

Match 17: Velocity vs NrJ`
Match 18: Death Penalty vs Cheer Up

Match 19: Wumbologists vs Northsiders
Match 20: MSI vs Velvetroom

Match 21: Velle Vincere vs Star Team
Match 22: Undisclosed vs Bazzinga

Match 23: Falonism vs por que
Match 24: Pentakill vs Team [B$]

Match 25: nv- vs Sexy`
Match 26: MiX Team vs TBD

Match 27: Nameless vs Lost Boys
Match 28: Splendid-Gaming vs Les Touristes*

Match 29: Team Anonymous vs Homunculus*
Match 30: Team Carbon vs GuardianS

Match 31: simp1ex vs Team France
Match 32: Hangover vs Aim Shot

73
Left 4 Dead 2 / Re: The Bloody Moors (Test run anyone?)
« on: October 16, 2013, 05:35:42 pm »
A custom campaign set in North Yorkshire? Dayum! Even more intrigued now, I imagine the creator is a Yorkshireman himself? It will be interesting to see how he has created the campaign.

Although being a Devonian guy, it would be awesome if Dartmoor was featured in a custom campaign, as it does have firing ranges used by the military irl so weapons would make sense for locale's sake even in a firearm-deprived country like Britain lol. But props to the mapper, I can't wait to see it!

74
News / Re: Equilibrium Cup #2
« on: October 13, 2013, 06:40:49 am »
[VOD]

nv- vs TBD - Swamp Fever (Tokyo server)

hib's stream: http://www.twitch.tv/haxormode/b/469764731

dec's pov: http://www.twitch.tv/l4dstreamlined/b/469762714

75
News / Re: Equilibrium Cup #2
« on: October 08, 2013, 12:58:21 pm »
Does blast from past = shairi?

It could be Shairi, but I'm not going to confirm or deny any name thrown out there  8)

I forgot to post matches for Round 1 on Swamp Fever / No Mercy so here they are:


Match 01: Velocity vs Cheer Up

Match 02: Death Penalty vs NrJ`

Match 03: Velvetroom vs Wumbologists

Match 04: MSI vs Northsiders

Match 05: Velle Vincere vs Bazzinga

Match 06: TBA vs Star Tim

Match 07: Pentakill vs por que

Match 08: Falonism vs Team [B$]

Match 09: TBD vs nv-

Match 10: Sexy` vs MiX Team

Match 11: Nameless vs Splendid-Gaming

Match 12: Team Overview vs Les Touristes

Match 13: Team Anonymous vs Team Carbon

Match 14: Homunculus vs GuardianS

Match 15: Hangover L4D2 vs Team France

Match 16: simp1ex vs Aim Shot

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