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Messages - NF

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31
News / Re: Information on Dark Carnival's Development from Valve
« on: September 21, 2017, 06:36:43 pm »
Did the hippie have any lines?
Can i play the hippie?
The story of a south american hippie, scouting the zombie infested US in search of a cure and a green card.

There's one single file left in which I believe is the hippie, in the folder -- left 4 dead 2\left4dead2\sound\npc\pilot. Never heard this voice used anywhere else.

32
News / Information on Dark Carnival's Development from Valve
« on: September 21, 2017, 05:03:49 pm »
I'm currently working on a Dark Carnival remake campaign, and as I was going through the files, I noticed a lot of beta models and voice lines left in the game. I speculated on what they were for for a while, but eventually decided to just get in contact with Valve themselves to find out what they were for so I could possibly restore them for my campaign. To my surprise they responded to me with huge detailed summaries! I got their permission to post this information, so I'll sum it up here (anonymized).

Q: Was Dark Carnival inspired by any real life locations?

Valve Dev 1:
Quote
There were really two of us who worked on the fairgrounds portion of the campaign. I designed from the entrance up until the roller coaster and <Valve Dev 2> designed from the roller coaster until the end. <Valve Dev 3> also took over the map with the Tunnel of Love to the end of the roller coaster when we split the maps. So, I can only speak of my own inspiration for the part up until the roller coaster, but I referenced the Evergreen State Fairgrounds in Monroe, WA:
https://www.evergreenfair.org/129/The-Fairgrounds
This is just a short drive from Valve and an artist and myself went there when it was not open as a fairgrounds to take reference photos. This was mainly for the kinds of buildings and structures they have at the fairgrounds but not so much the rides. I also referenced Kings Island in Ohio (where I grew up) for a lot of the rides and organization of the carnival games but it was a very loose reference:
https://d3knbu6191stae.cloudfront.net/binaries/content/assets/ki-en-us/general-information/explore/directions/2017-kings-island-park-map.pdf
Valve Dev 2:
Quote
The rollercoaster was inspired by Colossus at Six Flags Magic Mountain. The stage was inspired by Puyallup Fairgrounds, WA.
https://i.imgur.com/ZtrIZIp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/G5a8YXD.jpg


Q: In the files I found models for a monorail (different from the one in the game) and voice lines where Coach and Nick talk about jumping on it. What was the original plan for this?


Valve Dev 1
Quote
The "monorail" wasn't really a monorail but more like the People Mover in Disneyworld. I think Monorail would have been too permanent a structure so you can see an elevated ride in kiddieland that was more what we had in mind. I think the original thought was you would go up and run along that track to jump over a fence, but I changed it to the rooftops and down the slide because we were going to have you on a track of the roller coaster later.
Valve Dev 2:
Quote
I wanted to do a walk along a monorail track after the rooftop jumps but the map was getting too big by that point. [note by me: this dev designed map 4, not map 2, so it's possible there was supposed to be a monorail there too. The voice files for the monorail are also labeled c2m4, supporting this theory]


Q: Similarly, I read some more about how the finale was to be set on a train, akin to a more county fair type setting. I also found some voice lines where Nick is arguing with a "hippie". Do you remember anything about this?


Valve Dev 1:
 
Quote
The original finale was supposed to be a train (you can see you arrive in a train boxcar at the beginning of Swamp Fever) but I think we felt it didn't feel like it really tied into the carnival type setting and <Valve Dev 2> wanted to do the concert. If I remember correctly, there was supposed to be a guy in the concert area who was going to help you with the stage lights and sound. He was going to be up the audience area at the back and you'd have to ask him to be your tech crew. It was later changed to turn it on yourselves. I think this was the "hippie" in the script.
Valve Dev 2:
   
Quote
The stage finale originally had you move about the stadium to switch banks in the bleachers but we cut it back to just defending the stage. I wanted to keep the players moving rather than sticking to the stage. I eventually pulled this off by placing items around the arena. This might have been when the tech guy was written in but I’m not sure. The train departure was cut in favor the of the helicopter rescue from the stadium. As far as I can remember, the train rescue was going to involve a train showing up behind a fence and the team jumping on when it arrived. It was tougher spatially to pull this off from the stage because we wanted to keep the experience more contained. Much easier to make a chopper fly in over the walls that kept you inside the stadium.


Q: This is a bit of speculation on my part... but were all the campaigns in the game originally slated to be 4 maps instead of 5? It's known that Parish 1 and 2 were originally merged, and I've noticed some circumstantial evidence Hard Rain was 4 maps...


Valve Dev 1:
 
Quote
   Typically we plot out each campaign base on what we want to include and try to keep it around the same length each time but as the development progresses and we test more and more we find that maps need to be split or maybe another mini finale is added to require a split. It's a bit organic. Hard Rain was quite different since the goal was to come back on the same path with different terrain. [note by me: Basically: if it was too hard, the maps were split]
There was a part after the roller coaster that <Valve Dev 2> built before the end of that level but we found people almost dead right after the roller coaster so we had to cut it so the exit was right there. I think it was just more track of carnival tents and fairground though - not another ride or attraction. [note by me: I think this implies the original end saferoom for the coaster map was the little room in the back of the bumper car building]


Q: Did Valve have any plans to do anything more with the Midnight Riders?


Valve Dev 1:
Quote
    We had a little bit of the Midnight Riders in the DLC where you see a bus driving down the street and it's their tour van. We had planned that they escaped the infection and maybe were going to use them in a DLC at some point where you play as them. This never came to fruition however.

There you have it! Thanks again to Valve for such an in-depth response! Going to try to incorporate these elements into my new map if I can.

33
Custom Campaigns & Mapping / Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Beta Maps
« on: September 21, 2017, 03:31:37 am »
Posted a complete summary with some new information from Valve here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/l4d2/comments/71hrcy/information_on_dark_carnivals_development_from/

If you want anyone to try and break the map and test some things let me know..

Sure.

34
Custom Campaigns & Mapping / Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Beta Maps
« on: September 07, 2017, 03:41:35 am »
Interesting.

I've liked the Beta Parish you helped Mr. San with. Since its mostly true to the beta. I also liked the one by Someone, even if he went a totally different direction with it.The only thing really left for Mr Sans version is unlocking some roofs for versus play.

I thought you had abandoned the Dark Carnival remake, but im glad to hear its back on or never was abandoned.

In terms of Valve and L4D2. They continue to fart out sneaky updates here and there. Like the recent one that fixed the L4D1 common so they could be used without the horrible shading. The Midnight Riders campaign or DLC is something that was pretty popular in the community for a while. Not sure why they never bothered with that. I guess it was just easier to copy/paste the L4D1 survivors and campaigns. Just lazy really.

I also remember them making a bigger deal of the sacrifice finale than it ended up being. Talking like it was going to require a supreme amount of teamwork, when all it ended up being was hitting switches at the same time before finale start. Then using a throwable to hit the last switch or adrenaline or whatever else.

The more elaborate stadium finale they described probably would've amounted to hitting a couple more switches, but I suppose we'll never know. The train finale might've been neat and it would've made more sense with the Fever beginning, but I can see why they changed it. More extravagant as well.

If they ever do a 3rd (unlikely). They could throw the fans a bone/bookend DLC like having the L4D2 crew meet the Riders and you play a mix of the 8 characters or even two separate campaigns. Highly unlikely though.

Yeah, the Dark Carnival remake is back in development. I've actually been working on it for a while, but didn't want to announce anything until it was close to done. Right now the first 3 maps are complete and the 4th has the base geometry done. Unlike Downpour and Parish Waterfront, the Dark Carnival remake will consist mostly of entirely new areas built from scratch in the carnival setting.

I asked another question to the Valve person I'm talking to about why Parish 1 + 2 was split into seperate maps and if this happened to other maps too (my 4 map campaign theory). Here's the response:

"Typically we plot out each campaign base on what we want to include and try to keep it around the same length each time but as the development progresses and we test more and more we find that maps need to be split or maybe another mini finale is added to require a split.  It's a bit organic.  Hard Rain was quite different since the goal was to come back on the same path with different terrain.
There was a part after the roller coaster that X built before the end of that level but we found people almost dead right after the roller coaster so we had to cut it so the exit was right there.  I think it was just more track of carnival tents and fairground though - not another ride or attraction."

(replaced a name with "X")

So basically: it was too hard. And it's interesting to learn that Dark Carnival 3 continued into the bumper car area. The saferoom would've probably been the small room in the back, which coincidentally is something I did in my remake as well. This makes me wonder more about map 4, it would've been incredibly short with that area cut out unless there was something else cut. I have to email someone else at Valve to find that out since maps 4+5 of Dark Carnival was made by a different person than Map 1+2. So far I haven't gotten a response though.

35
Custom Campaigns & Mapping / Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Beta Maps
« on: September 02, 2017, 03:55:37 am »
I've gotten in contact with Valve to find out more info. BTW in case you're wondering why almost everything I'm posting about is related to Dark Carnival, it's because I'm working on a Dark Carnival remake and basically dissecting the entire campaign.

Here's some information I've found out from Valve.

- Dark Carnival has inspiration from Evergreen State Fairgounds in Washington and to a lesser extent Kings Island in Ohio.

- The monorail I talked about earlier was cut for feeling out of place and "too permanent a structure". Makes sense, because fairgounds typically aren't set up all year long. It also felt too similar to running on the tracks on the roller coaster later. Replaced with the Kiddyland version you seen now in the game.

- Originally the slide did not exist on map 2. Instead, you accessed the monorail tracks and used those to get across the fence. There's a lot of voice lines for Nick talking about "get on the monorail!" still left in the files that you can hear.

- The original finale was not the stadium, but at a train. You were to get into the traincars to escape, this is why you begin in the traincars on Swamp Fever 1. Changed because it felt out of place with the rest of the campaign.

- The stadium was then added, but with many differences. There was going to be a guy at the concert area, who Nick calls a "hippie" in the voice files who was going to help you set up the stage lights and sound. He would be up in the audience area calling the shots. Later changed so you set things up yourself. Also in the voice files are Nick and Coach talking about many other things you would've had to do during the finale, like lighting up the "smoke pots", hitting switches, and going around the map igniting fireworks.

And finally the most interesting piece of knowledge overall...

- A Midnight Riders campaign was considered where you would play as the Riders, but never came to fruition.

37
Custom Campaigns & Mapping / Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Beta Maps
« on: July 22, 2017, 12:07:37 pm »


I restored the cut ticketbooth prop from Dark Carnival and made 3 variants: normal, kiddieland, tunnel of love. Will be used in a future custom campaign remake of Dark Carnival.

38
Left 4 Dead 2 / Randomness in Valve Gauntlet Events
« on: July 10, 2017, 01:03:13 am »
Ever wonder why it seems like your team got more common than the enemy team? Well, it's possible you did. Some of the events in the game, especially the ones on Dark Carnival, have rng elements in them that should be removed in whatever config is being played now. I checked and I don't think any current config fixes these.

You can download the decompiled vscripts here to see for yourself:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/k280fhwjsp21sn8/Decompiled+VScripts.zip

Here's an example of Dark Carnival 4, the second half of the event after the gate opens.

Code: [Select]
Msg("Initiating Onslaught\n");

DirectorOptions <-
{
// This turns off tanks and witches.
ProhibitBosses = false

//LockTempo = true
MobSpawnMinTime = 3
MobSpawnMaxTime = 7
MobMinSize = 30
MobMaxSize = 30
MobMaxPending = 30
SustainPeakMinTime = 5
SustainPeakMaxTime = 10
IntensityRelaxThreshold = 0.99
RelaxMinInterval = 1
RelaxMaxInterval = 5
RelaxMaxFlowTravel = 50
SpecialRespawnInterval = 1.0
        SmokerLimit = 2
        JockeyLimit = 0
        BoomerLimit = 0
        HunterLimit = 2
        ChargerLimit = 1
PreferredMobDirection = SPAWN_IN_FRONT_OF_SURVIVORS
ZombieSpawnRange = 2000
}

Director.ResetMobTimer()

Whenever you see a "Min" and "Max", that means the game is randomly choosing a value inbetween those two. There's also the "IntensityRelaxThreshold". I haven't tested this for certain but I'm pretty sure it means when the team's "intensity" level gets too high, i.e. youre getting rekt, the game pauses or reduces the rate of common spawning to give you a chance to regroup. In this map it pauses between a value of 1 and 5 (seconds? idk), and a map flow distance of 50.

This should be tested first, but you can fix these things by removing all the "relax" lines, and making the "min" and "max" lines have the same value, probably a value in the middle of those two for the best balance. Then use stripper:source to modify the entity that calls the script, usually a func_button entity, edit the logic output that calls Valve's vscript and replace it with the fixed version.

39
Custom Campaigns & Mapping / Re: Left 4 Dead 2 Beta Maps
« on: June 23, 2017, 12:02:33 pm »
New discoveries recently.

The Arcade game of L4D, released in Japan only, has updated versions of the maps with changes that aren't present either the PC or the console version. I don't think the updates were done by Valve but who knows.

https://youtu.be/7sBYAxDF9gU?t=512
Here you can see there's a special infected ladder leading to the top of the semi on Dark Carnival 1, and later there's one that leads to the bridge.

https://youtu.be/qPCh9U38oYk?t=47
Here you can see a dresser on the Dead Center 1 balcony that would force survivors to re enter the windows.

https://youtu.be/5Mpcff1tq8A?t=73
A huge bush outside the Dark Carnival 2 warehouse.

https://youtu.be/VDmCvIFi-po?t=606
A bunch of rubble on the Dead Center 2 bridge.

https://youtu.be/VDmCvIFi-po?t=655
A ton of barricades, another car, and a bus added to the Dead Center 2 highway.

All the maps also have a ton of bright arrows added to them to show the way. That's all I could find based on the limited footage available on Youtube. If anyone knows where I can find more footage, let me know!

==========================

Another thing we found are some beta Instructor messages that got cut.

L4D2_Instructor_explain_hatch
Displayed Caption 1: Open the hatch


A hatch event that got cut from a map?

L4D2_Instructor_explain_c4m4_finale_no_gas
Displayed Caption 1: You should bring the gas can here before you flip the switch


This shows Hard Rain 4 was originally planned to be 4 maps! That explains why map 4 and 5 (in the normal game)  are so easy compared to other campaigns. If you recall, Parish was originally supposed to be 4 maps as well, with Parish 1 and 2 being one long map. This means all campaigns would have been 4 map campaigns except Dark Carnival. But I could easily see the Motel map getting cut since it's unlike the rest of the campaign. Maybe all the campaigns were originally planned to be 4 maps only?!

Also, it looks like you would've had to carry the gas cans manually back through the Hard Rain maps. Good thing they cut that, sounds like it would've been annoying.

L4D2_Instructor_porch_light
Displayed Caption 1: Turn on porch lights to mark locations with items


Hard Rain porch lights could've been turned on manually to remind yourself of item stashes on the way back. Pretty neat.



40
News / Re: Announcing the efps 2017 Summer Tournament!
« on: June 13, 2017, 11:15:25 pm »
e: nvm

41
Left 4 Dead 2 / Re: Regarding config changes
« on: June 12, 2017, 12:55:34 am »
I'm sure you can delete the prop data or something you and someone else implemented lol

The police car is in the normal Valve map, I didnt add it.

42
Left 4 Dead 2 / Re: Regarding config changes
« on: June 11, 2017, 07:16:48 am »
* remove some of the dumb props that were added in over time and restore the maps to their original state somewhat. ( case by case obviously, some changes are good and some suck such as the cop car before the drop at dk1 should be an ambulance imo for better si spawns)

Not possible to do

43
General / Re: L4DNation discord chat
« on: May 18, 2017, 12:47:50 pm »
awesome, a voip server where we can organize pugs. its about time

ye but mumble doesnt have a good text chat

44
General / L4DNation discord chat
« on: May 18, 2017, 08:13:56 am »
https://discord.gg/FkpqBYF

Discord chat for all L4D players, comp or casual, NA, EU, and Asia. Invite all your friends and let's get some pugs set up. Feel free to use any of the voice channels too  8)

Let's try to get as many L4D players under one roof as possible instead of being spread across 10 different groups.

45
Confogl & Miscellaneous / Re: Apex Feedback Thread
« on: May 16, 2017, 09:50:49 pm »
Am I the only one who thought the default guns + static spread were fine? aka Promod guns. Both the shotgun and uzi were used fairly equally and neither felt too OP or UP. Uzi slowdown on tank was sort of a problem but that's a different issue which had been solved anyway.

Trying to rebalance them from scratch seems like trying to reinvent the wheel.

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