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Messages - Rails

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Hackers & Cheaters / Re: Is this fishy or what?
« on: January 16, 2019, 01:34:23 pm »

News / Officially Announcing The Really Big Tournament #4!
« on: November 22, 2018, 05:08:45 pm »


hosted by Rails Barlow

The Basics:


CONFIG: ZoneMod 1.9.3 (release soon)

PRIZE POOL: $200 WITH MORE TO COME (early stages)

RULESET: Pending

1. This is a Four (or five, depending on team signups) Round Swiss Style tournament, which will then proceed to a finals bracket of the top 8 teams to determine the champion (similar to the RBT1 and RBT3, plus e-FPS tournaments).

2. This server format for the tournament shall be HOME AND AWAY SERVERS for INTERNATIONAL MATCHES. The teams can determine whether or not to play one or two games for a given match; if the teams cannot agree, the admin team will decide.

3. This tournament will be played on ZoneMod with a match by match option for both teams to play another config if they so choose. If both teams choose to do so, they can play their match on another config (uMod, Acemod, Metafogl, Witch Party) instead of ZoneMod; both teams must agree to play another config for their match. If either team wants to play ZoneMod, the match MUST be played on ZoneMod. Anyone who's ever wanted to play jockey races for a tournament match, NOW IS YOUR TIME. NOTE: The option for mutual agreement on a different config only applies for the Swiss stages of the tournament. The Finals Bracket will be exclusively ZoneMod.

IMPORTANT: Team rosters will be limited to SIX PLAYERS. For the duration of the Swiss portion of the tournament, NO roster changes will be allowed following signups. Teams who qualify for the elimination bracket will be allowed to make roster alterations but ONLY for 1) removig inactive players and/or 2) adding players to their roster who have NOT played in the tournament as part of another team's roster. Classic rules.


The map pool for the tournament is as follows:

Hard Rain
Dark Carnival
The Parish
Death Toll
Diescraper Redux (Custom Map)
Dead Center
Hard Rain: Downpour

IMPORTANT: All official tournament information - including signups, round info, and official results - will be facilitated through the official steam group, which is open to join here!

Following the conclusion of signups, designated team captains will be expected to post match results in the proper threads in the group. Official announcements for streams, tournament progress, and the VOD archive will be available here; tournament admins will be the group admins; moderators will be casters, streamers, team captains, and other imporant tournament people.

Hackers & Cheaters / Re: [L4D2] Is that Hack?
« on: June 23, 2018, 11:48:17 pm »
100% aimbot.

Hackers & Cheaters / Re: How is that legit kill?
« on: August 20, 2017, 09:08:08 am »
I can understand why people think its suspicious, but even when reviewing the demo for the first time it was clear it was incredible luck and not a hack. All three admins reviewed the demos and came to the same unanimous conclusion.

An Avagond vs Florida final would have actually been worth watching in my opinion but no we end up with the same boring old shit. Pathetic fucking ending to a good tournament in my opinion. Definitely grounds for a disqualification..

This has absolutely nothing to do with the demo review. Welcome to comp l4d2, where the same players usually make the finals and the people who play the game the most win the tournies!

Release the demo and allow the community to make a decision about the legitimacy of the kill.

Right, because whatever the majority of a community thinks is a good barometer for whether something is legit or not, especially this commmunity. ::)

DeadSec > Toxicity

DeadSec > Longshots (FFW)

He went offline before I could ask him about another solution.

Actually, no. KissMe contributed very little to the community and took a whole lot more from it. If anything, he was a leach to the community and fed off of everyone else's prowess and contributed nothing else but this one tournament right before leaving.

I don't remember KissMe helping out new players that didn't have a pair of tits. I don't remember KissMe spending hours teaching people how to play the game better. I don't remember KissMe helping with server configurations or developing the game's config. I don't remember him covering games regardless of their skill-level or friendship to him.

So then, what did he do if he didn't do any of the above? Well... I guess he streamed matches and funded/contributed one tournament.  Except we have multiple people that streamed matches, some arguably better than him. So I guess that means the only thing he contributed to this community is his one tournament. News flash... KissMe didn't cover matches because no one else wanted to. He covered matches because he didn't let anyone else cover them.

So stop aggrandizing KissMe. His contribution to the community was little and he took more than he gave.

Sorry, but this is just factually untrue. He was the most dedicated streamer in the history of the community, just statistically. If you look at the amount of matches covered plus the view counts plus the exposure, he was pulling numbers similar to the 'glory days' of this community approximately three years after said glory days were over, if not more. He put out the product that people watched the most (again, numbers can be deceiving, but in terms of entertainment its hard to argue against them), he did a lot of the casting work himself, and yes, he stepped up to the plate more often than anyone, without question. Remove my role as a caster, I'm saying this as someone who adminned the vast majority of the tournaments he had a part in covering. He earned his role by being the most consistent streamer, and he absolutely did not take more than he gave. You've been thanking a lot of posts in this thread, and you probably would've done better just not saying anything because you revealed a large amount of bias that overlooks basic math. In terms of fiscal gain, by the way, he literally donated all the money he got from his YouTube back to the community through hosting BleedOut, plus donations from people who willingly gave him the money they earned because it was one of the best ways to support the community.

As far KissMe mentoring, someone else is gonna have to comment on that, but from what I understand yes, he did teach people how to play this game for a good amount of time (he has a claim regarding the number, I didn't witness it personally so I'm not gonna confirm/deny). And yeah, KissMe covered a lot of games which weren't high tier or even English-speaking just to cover them. I respect a difference of opinion as much as the next guy, but when we start talking numbers and start making claims like "KissMe was a leach" that's when I'll say something. Dusty/Jay and I were having a good exchange, and as Dusty said,

I've known kissme a long time, doesn't change the fact he did a lot for the community.

But elusive asked nicely for us to keep our off-topic conversation out of here, So lets take our personal attacks for grasps of relevancy elsewhere huh?


To be fair, Jay/Twisted (and a lot of people) had direct contact with KissMe at/around the time of these incidents, I joined the community well past those days, so I can only comment on what I know. This doesn't condone his behavior if it's true, I'm just saying I don't know much about it so I can't speak to the facts of the situation. The point I was making (to avoid going down that rabbit hole further) was that, if we're looking at BleedOut as a tournament regarding player conduct in said tournament from the role of an admin position (whoever that is) to a participant position (whoever they are), then bringing up stuff which the person in the admin position did to justify something the people in the participant position did during the tournament is completely inapplicable. I know people like bashing KissMe, and trust me, him and I haven't always agreed on everything, but it does bring up an interesting point I think Jay raised:

the wrong was letting this guy hold any position of authority.

It takes one of two things to get to a position of authority in this community: 1) willpower and 2) money. This goes back to the earlier point I made regarding the nature of adminning in this community: it's a volunteer basis, there has been almost no vetting system aside from either boycotting things run by a certain admin or, eventually, other community leaders find a way to shoehorn someone out of power. If the claim is that someone 'let' KissMe hold a position of power, then you have to ask, who exactly let him do anything? I suppose you could argue that it was the tournament admins who let him cover the games (who most likely knew of his past), but the popularity and the positive contributions he made through both the community exposure and then eventually running the largest tournament the community'd seen since fragpipe all happened due to the fact he was a constant presence, mostly thanks to his own accord and the work he put in to covering these games.

That's all it really takes to get to a position of power in this game: have time, have money (if you wanna found a pug group), and then don't be bad enough at your position to the point where people start looking for alternatives. For example, Elusive and Manzano are running this new tournament; nobody 'let' them do that. There's no central force that really guides what goes on here, it's all individuals who don't even really have a network. I adminned/had a part in adminning 10 tournaments because I showed some type of initiative. KissMe became the game's prominent streamer because he had initiative and created a product the community 'needed'.

didnt watch rbt2 or bleed out or w/e the heck u two are referring to but u apologized to kiss me? the guy who has added literallly every single steam user w/ a female avatar including some under 18 to skype with them and show them his dick? the guy who joined scrim servers just to post a spray of his dick? yup sounds about right. damn bravo and purple those internet trolls!

Using something someone did wrong as a justification for something someone else did wrong doesn't make anyone right: everyone's still wrong. There's this illogical idea I see all too often where people try to justify their behavior based on the shortcomings of someone else, but in the end, that helps nobody. I've tried to apply this philosophy more myself as of late, and I've failed, but that doesn't mean I stop trying. I've even applied this philosophy to you many times, as you know.

Then don't tolerate it, just because our community is small or some of the people deserve to be banned play on good teams, shouldn't put anyone or anything above rules. I mean, I know all of them have dealt with their fair share of retarded bullshit. And once they got tired of it, most of them retired from playing, or wanting/volunteering to administer.

Precisely, that's why the section on conduct in the rules was updated, and why some admins have chosen to be more forceful, and also why others have given leniency in some areas. If the tournament admins for this upcoming tournament are reading this, I'd be curious to see what would happen if they simply banned people (based on conduct rules) from even participating in the tournament. I want to see what the reaction to that would be, and if then people would 'protest' the rules being enforced to the extent of an admin's discretion (hint: why do you think so many teams didn't want that spot in the HotMess grand finals/turned the decision thread into a troll post?). Many good people have been involved in this community, it's a shame that many of them have left because it's 'this community.'

I agree about the decisions, but from my understanding of the grand finals ban, It was an action put forth by an admin of the hotmess group, not a tournament admin. And while we all know some will be upset about the game not being played or a ban. I greatly respect that someone said you are crossing the line. But the point of basically my whole paragraph was, why doesn't a team get disqualified in the game when they are mm1'ing to talk shit or calling an admin a pub? It seems these habitual line steppers do it so much, because so many times they don't get punished.

Yeah, it was put forth by an admin of the Hotmess Group, but the tournament admins went along with it. If we'd wanted to, the tourney admins could've been like 'but we still want the match to get played' and then some discussion would've happened, but after hearing the details nobody wanted to argue the point because the decision was 100% correct. As we know, the habitual line steppers have been punished in the past, but the attitudes of many have been (for better or for worse) that the punishments aren't too harsh, with one of the main arguments (not even from the admins) being that there's an inherent nature of 'trash-talk' when it comes to this game, in particular. While I'm not a huge advocate of that theory, there are many in the community who support it, usually on the grounds of 'its the internet and its words, so who cares.' That's why it's historically been on admins to be consistent and then draw the line where they see fit. Acting like an idiot means you play with fire, essentially; sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. To standardize conduct is a heavy task, which has been tried (and failed) before because then either the people setting the ground-rules go power happy (TFPG) or then the losses resulting from enforcing conduct outweigh the benefits (RBT2).

Im correlating these examples by saying, If you see a rule being broken, then you should take action without having to be forced, or pestered. Yes it is 100% true what you are saying about the tournament and my team almost getting thrown out, and when It happened. I did not blame any admins for unfair rulings. I knew my team consisted of habitual line-steppers and I called them retards, and I apologized to kiss-me for anything I might have done to offend him. Never asking to be granted leniency. I'm no better than anyone else when it comes to the rules, and nobody else, me included should be treated like they are.

It starts at the top, in my opinion. That's how it usually goes. Like I said, I have a lot of respect for you and the way you think, nobody here's a saint, but its common knowledge that the people with the most influence in this community as players have set a tone in the community. Some of its passable, some of it most definitely isn't. I bring up the example with your team to show a recent example; another which springs to mind is how Apol used to troll in scrims, sometimes even against newer-ish teams. People get 'bored' and then they try to make the game interesting by acting in the ways they do. Dusty, if more people thought the way you did about it, it would be a very different community, but a lot of this can be shown through the original success (and subsequent disaster) of TFPG, as you said:

If we are correlating this to TFPG, I'm pretty sure everyone left because the gate of entry was too damn high, and it became more like a dictatorship than, just simple fair rules.

TFPG exploded because the admins started to use the rules to their advantage. For the system you're talking about to work, three things need to happen: 1) you need admins who are always going to be logical and fair (at least to the best of their abilities). 2) you need admins willing to enforce as much of the conduct rules as possible, which is going to take some leg-work and ability to make decisions on their part which are both un-biased and in line with what the other admins are doing; you'd need to agree on 'what is too far in terms of conduct?'. Lastly, and most importantly, 3) said system would need to be maintained and would need to, in the event of an alternative presented with more lax conduct rules, present an environment/service superior to said alternative. TFPG failed on all three counts and died due to terrible management, because the people at the top who were dictating (pun intended) the conduct rules ended up being massive hypocrites. See: LTD. While I love the attitude you're proposing in theory, for it to work in a tournament-setting it would need to be a big shift from the meta with some admins who are willing to take 1) a lot of shit and 2) spend a lot of time.

Your stated advantage to being hands-off, is basically just a disadvantage to being an admin. Every admin has to deal with that shit, and dealing with it is just part of being an admin.

Eh, sorta. There's a limit to what any decent person would put up with, the admins here need to have a much higher tolerance to stuff that just plain doesn't get tolerated in other games, because there's either large enough a community to weed out some people who should be banned, or there's a power structure in place where threatening to ban someone carries a lot more weight. Why do you think, after doing a lot in this game for loads of time, people like Jacob, EsToOpi, and even Zen to an extent moved to more 'hands off' positions after a while?

Being hands-on to discuss it with other admins and taking a while isn't really being hands-on in the context I am meaning it. The reason people are made admins is because they are people that are trusted to be logical and make decisions. So make them. It seems too often people are scared to be hated for a bad decision or by one side, But no matter what you do, If you are settling a dispute. Not everyone is going to be happy. It's not a democracy.

I'm aware of why people should be made admins, and I'm also aware of how people perceive admin decisions. Really, if you're an admin, you shouldn't care one way or the other what your reputation is if you're making (unpopular) but correct decisions - if you're actually making fair decisions. At least in terms of recent events, the HotMess finals being canceled was literally the admin team letting the grand finals not get played because we were following the rules; was that decision popular? Probably not, but as I told RageCake shortly after it happened, it was the absolute right thing to do considering the circumstances.

Also, things like that game happening, while I know and understand that admins can't be everywhere and see everything said or done in games/chats that is retarded, and people should be better at reporting such retardation. But when admins are sitting there clearly seeing it happen and doing nothing? It's in the rules as a punishable offense. Is it only supposed to be punished if it's reported? What if as an admin you are spectating a game and someone is balls to the wall aimboting and you are specing it first person. Does it only go punished if reported?

Those two examples don't exactly correlate. Let me put it this way: the high tier players in this game have earned themselves a terrible reputation by essentially being good enough to where (they think) they can be 'above' conduct rules. As you know, during BleedOut, it sort of became HCP's 'thing' to be sorta abrasive, trolly, semi-racist (in the eyes of some), and then said conduct almost got y'all thrown out of the elimination stages for screwing with KissMe during a live-stream. Unfortunately for you, you got lumped in with people who were acting like that, and I respect the way you didn't follow along with a lot of that conduct, but when you play with good people, sometimes sacrifices are made in terms of the character of the people you play with. Now, the admins and your team eventually reached a compromise where HCP apologized for being idiots (when you all knew better). If we'd been following the rules on conduct, which are elastic as hell, for any one of those comments made in crossteam chat (or warroom) even remotely similar to that Aphelion match, your team, technically, could've been booted from the tournament. You weren't. Everything ended up working out.

For other examples of people good at the game who, because of their skill, believe they don't have to act like decent human beings, see, I don't know, Hellheim in RBT3, Apollyon in RBT1 ... there are tons of examples. You know this community. There's an absolutely huge amount of room for admin interpretation, and the most recent decision came down to this: do we try to play the grand finals and let a player slide, again, for conduct, or is there a point where someone sacrifices, potentially, the tournament getting completed to enforce a rule on conduct? This tournament, the latter option was chosen. In previous tournaments, the first option was exercised. If we were to be really, really harsh in terms of rule enforcement - if every single instance you're talking about was actually punished - the community would be pretty much empty. Should that have happened? Sure, you can say it should've, but then those people who get 'punished' have the power to just go and make their own game, essentially, and then the community often follows them. It's food for thought for anyone interested in how these decisions work.

I mean, thats because you guys as admins often do a complete hands-off approach. I remember watching a match where aphelion was legit calling an admin of the tourney a pub in the presence of around 2-3 admins? People constantly shit talking in mm1.

When prodigy made the decision on the parish game, it was a breath of fresh-air honestly because often times we sit around for like 30 minutes with admins saying they are conferring etc...

Basically the only way for people to NOT say you are a bad admin, is to do no admin'ing at all.

The funny part about that was that the person calling the admin of the tournament a pub was an admin of the group which was sponsoring the tournament.

I've done both hands-on adminning and hands-off adminning, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. Advantage of being hands-off: you don't get sucked into trying to manage some of the ugly parts of the community (TFPG tried to regulate conduct, we all know how that turned out).

Disadvantage of being hands-off: admins get accused of being lazy, etc.

Advantage of being hands on: Decisions are made with a good amount of thought, and having an admin around for matches involving people who are problematic often makes things go smoother, etc.

Disadvantage of being hands on: people complaining that they have to wait while the admins are discussing a decision (sorry, but I'm really not sympathetic towards that plight).

Either way, people will find something to complain about no matter what people do, especially in a community like this one. Actually, that's something which happens in general. The best compromise is to be sympathetic, for sure, but then also aware of how the community works. Consistency is key, probably even more-so than 'professionalism' (whatever that is). That's why I liked adminning with Fig, because he was very straightforward and logical (sometimes to a fault) and I was straightforward, too, but also more willing to talk things out/interact with people to try and find a decision (sometimes to a fault).

> Why bother trying to organise a community that is difficult for even the most experienced and respected tournament admins- 2 of the largest tournaments in the last year or so have been cancelled before the finals despite a rigorous and professional approach taken by the admins. Surely using exe dee unironically must go to show your lack of understanding of the difficulty and effort it takes to run a successful tourney.

It's difficult, yeah, but not impossible. The situation with the HotMess finals was unique because of the cross-over between HotMess Group admins and HotMess Tourney admins; the initial decision to ban a player was made by the Group admins (rightfully so, and their decision was 100% correct considering the circumstances). It's a challenging community at some points, sure, but the team who won that tournament was the one who followed the rules, and the other teams who dropped out lost their chance at L4D2 glory, which the admins could absolutely have cared less about. As an admin, you can't control what the players do sometimes, the community is the way it is. I appreciate Elusive and Manzano stepping up to the plate.

> Using a different site to organise= is this a troll post?

No, but there's a lot of troll posts on this site. At the very least, the tourney needs its own subthread where the admins have some kind of moderation control over any potential stupidity.

> There is likely to be no server admins who could care about this.

I'd bet the HotMess staff, while not being outright involved in this officially, will support the effort, plus some people on the EU side. The game's dead but its not that dead.

> There is no more config developers who could care to modify acemod be there a serious need for meta change.

From my understanding, Visor's making/has already made V5. If it doesn't suck, teams will use it. If it does, they'll use V4, which already has an uzi nerf (apparently, I haven't played, but if the accounts in that other cfg thread are true).

> Less importantly does anyone with the ability to stream even give a fuck anymore about these matches? Its like playing a pug where the winner gets some imaginary prize, 'woo go us we won a tourney with 4 teams in it exxx deee'

I think so, there's a couple people still around who would probably be interested. Considering the state of the community, the recent numbers weren't completely terrible, there are still people who want to watch these games. By the time the actual tournament rolls around we might be surprised at how many people are (still) watching. Depending on the hype and if the community doesn't bite the hand trying to run a tournament for them too hard, perhaps support might end up with a positive result. The community has indeed looked either about as dead or dead-er than this before, and if we've learned nothing, the game will still be around in some form for quite a long time (like a cockroach after a nuclear bomb). That's why I appreciate the people who, despite almost all rational belief, still care enough to do something.

Again, best of luck to Elusive and Manzano in running this tourney!

Thanks to all the teams who participated in the tournament, and congrats to Pubstars on the first place finish! I want to give a shoutout to both HotMess admin teams, the tournament staff and then also the HotMess group staff, for their handling of issues this tournament -- thanks for your effort and for making a few tough calls. Despite the fact the grand finals didn't technically get played for a bevy of reasons, the team which ended up winning the tournament by default was, by measure of not only their play in the tournament but from their following of the rules, the one which deserved to win. I also want to thank Xbye, Dawkins, Dope_Boy and other streamers and casters for their tournament coverage; thanks for bringing the matches to the people who wanted to see them! I appreciate the time people took to play, admin, cover, and watch this tournament, and especially the cooperation of Hot Mess in partnering for a successful result. GG's.

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