Author Topic: Detour Ahead (Promod Development)  (Read 16140 times)

Zeon

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Detour Ahead (Promod Development)
« on: March 30, 2014, 06:27:27 am »
   Detour Ahead
There is no turning back...

CHAPTERS:
  •     Chapter 1: Detour
  •     Chapter 2: Hill
  •     Chapter 3: Warehouse
  •     Chapter 4: On a rail
  •     Chapter 5: Final road

Credits:
NF for co-designing.
Boogada the map creator for support.


Changelog:

Map 1 (Underway)
Code: [Select]
- Optimized and reduced many brushes.
- Optimized areas for better fps.
- Significantly reduced fog in the river section, and increased map brightness slightly,
- Fixed some props clipping through each other.
- Tweaked starting area to make early Tanks more manageable.
- Cliffsides pushed further outward and raised to prevent SI from easily dropping on your head.
- Foliage reduced slightly.
- Invisible wall side boundaries pushed inward so Tanks cannot get LOS as freely.
- Clipping improved so dust from team Velvet Room doesn't get punched outside the map anymore.
- Fixed getting stuck behind a giant rock and the cliff side in the river section.
- Improved collisions with physics debris.
- Increased walkable space throughout the river section.
- Fixed SI being able to be seen through a prop near the house.
- Removed right side fences in the house's backyard.
- Reduced clutter in the beginning area and along the river.
- Reorganized the back bedroom in the house for better accessibility.
- Removed a couple doors in the house to encourage exploration of it.
- Removed a rescue closet in the house.
- Made the mailbox outside the house non-solid.
- Replaced triple tree cluster with a big tree near the trailer.
- Moved the small boats under the shack to be against the wall and made them not float in the air.
- Blocked many stuck and glitch spots.
- Fixed cliff edge geometry resulting in buggy ledge-hang mechanics near the end.
- Fixed incorrectly aligned fence texture near the end.
- Moved dumpster closer to the wall and made it static near the end.
- Fixed being able to be seen through a fence at the end.
- Moved a tree hanging out of the left side of the cliff near the end. It now ends at the same place as the fence below, so you can determine where the death charge area ends.
- Fixed gas pumps glowing as if they were hittable.
- Added a potential pill spawn to the white van at the end.
- Moved rooftop air conditioning units more towards the back of the roof for spawns.
- Repositioned alarm car closer to the house.
- Made the shortcut to jump into the house's window from the backyard harder to do.
- Added a deagle and pill spawn in the river section next to a large tree.
- Replaced some small trees with large oak trees for spawns.

Map 2 (Finished)
Code: [Select]
- Improved clipping across the map; It shouldn't be possible to get outside map boundaries anymore.
- Removed pill spawns that could spawn outside the map.
- Removed a trigger that would block any horde from spawning.
- Made many props nonsolid to reduce the chance of getting stuck on them while walking.
- Reduced clutter and made the auto building before saferoom less claustrophobic.
- Improved clipping on the barricades during the event; you shouldn't get stuck on them anymore.
- Fixed several broken SI ladders.
- Added new SI ladders across the map.
- Fixed a few floating props.
- Fixed some incorrectly aligned textures.
- Fixed many stuck/glitch spots.
- Optimized many areas for better FPS.
- The event begins when you pass the "warning" signs along the road (the point where it began was arbitrary before)
- Unclipped the military vehicles during the event.
- Fixed missing glass textures in the convenience store.
- Made the rubble pile in the building before safe room less steep, so you are less likely to get caught on edges.
- Reduced the number of potential pill spawns in the house slightly.
- Fixed restroom doors being un-openable.
- You no longer have to jump to get over the concrete wall by the broken fence at the beginning.
- Fixed a displacement that wasn't shaped properly near the event button.
- You can now climb up the grill of the semi-trailer before the event, and added a melee weapon spawn up top.
- You no longer have to jump to spawn when spawning next to buses, trucks, and cars.
- Improved collisions with physics debris to reduce the chance of getting stuck.
- Moved a vehicle near the saferoom to increase a gap.
- Removed the glows from the gas station pumps.
- Removed one foliage tree creating too much clutter in between other trees at saferoom.
- Moved the ladder to get on the container before saferoom.
- Replaced a truck on the street.
- Added a few more fence covers to the event.
- Removed a prop colliding with other props near the button.
- Replaced and move a hittable vehicle after the button for a static one.

Map 3 (Underway)
Code: [Select]
- Unclipped many roofs at the beginning of the map for the SI.
- Removed foliage outside the map.
- Made all the props outside the map non-solid.
- Removed the hittable dumspter next to the trailer at the event.
- Removed some props in wierd spots.
- Removed some brushes between the pillars inside the warehouse and raised some.
- Improved clipping inside the warehouse, you no longer get stuck on the poles above the box shelfs.
- Re-organized the box shelfs inside the warehouse by a few units.
- Re-designed both stairs inside the warehouse.
- Removed a table in the middle of the computer room inside the warehouse.
- Removed a trash pile near the stair case after event to improve pathing for common.
- Made many prop physics inside the building after the event not collide with players.
- Redsigned the picnic area outside of saferoom.
- Reduced the amount of brushes in the map by a hundred.
- Repositioned the crashed trailer next to the burning building at the event.
- Respositioned some of the vehicles at the event by a few units.
- Re-designed the fire escape outside the saferoom for more space.
- Re-designed the railing on the staircase next to saferoom.

Map 4 (Finished)
Code: [Select]
- Removed a couple train cars at the event allowing survivors to access the tracks without needing to use the ladder.
- Replaced a railing at the train tracks for a fence to evade survivor from blocking spawns.
- Added two infected ladders to the building across from (start) saferoom.
- Added one infected ladder to the (start) saferoom building's roof.
- Added infected ladders to the bushes next to the (start) saferoom.
- Made the ladder inside (start) saferoom non-solid to evade getting stuck.
- Added a vehicle to the open area behind the (start) saferoom.
- Removed the traffic barrels at the open area behind (start) saferoom.
- Added infected ladders to access the graveyard next to (start) saferoom.
- Added pipes along the edge on most of the bridge.
- Added foliage and one shrub wall to the path after the event.
- Added one flat train car on the train tracks before arriving to the next building after the event.
- Improved world clips to evade infected from getting stuck in areas outside the map.
- Added infected ladders to each building, the concrete walls and some trains in the trainyard.
- Made many props non-solid.
- Added infected ladders to the tents near end saferoom.
- Removed one briefcase stack near end saferoom.
- Increased the trains speed.
- Replaced weapons spawns in saferoom to make them more diverse.
- Removed natural hordes being forced by a script.
- Removed the yellow poles at the event.
- Optimized map brushes.
- Added a new spawn room for infected above the event.
- Fixed many small prop physics from colliding with players.
- Added a vehicle to the garbage area of the map.
- Increased the gap between the wooden fences at the garbage area.
- Removed an electrical box next to the cooling tank after event which allowed the survivor to climb up the cooling tank.
- Removed an outhouse before entering the tent area in end saferoom.
- Removed a train tank from the trainyard.
- Fixed the restrooms at the office.
- Added spawns way back behind the cornfield and infected ladders to climb over and back the fence.
- Replaced the vehicle next to saferoom for a moving truck.
- Added a vehicle right outside the saferoom.
- Improved clipping on some vehicles.
- Fixed some fence covers not holding onto the fences.
- Moved a vehicle to the center of the hill before arriving up the street towards the event.
- Removed a door at the trailer park.
- Added a hittable dumpster next to saferoom building.
- Unclipped the military vehicles at the street.
- Removed the breakable wooden paths below the train bridge to fix hanging as survivor.
- Moved two vehicles on the street for better pathing.
- Repositioned the buses near end saferoom for better pathing.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 10:09:04 pm by Zeon »

NF

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2014, 06:45:55 am »
Here are my map 2 changes. I'll update this as I work.

EDIT: Removed, posted in the OP instead.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 06:57:56 am by NF »

Dyl Dough

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2014, 07:44:44 am »
Muy bien

estoopi

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2014, 09:38:52 am »
Dyl i'm suprised you haven't suggested them nerf the hit right out of the safe room on map 3 xD...  the dyldough choke

Dyl Dough

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2014, 01:55:18 pm »
I forgot about that honestly.

Pls refer to this topic and all of the people who agree conmigo:

http://www.l4dnation.com/l4d2-discussion/detour-ahead/msg19981/#msg19981

Thanks Estoopi

Dyl Dough

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2014, 01:59:06 pm »
And the people who don't obviously. Since Jacob doesn't I doubt this will be implemented since he's on your development team. But worth a try. I just think it's pointless to have multiple ridiculous chokes like that in one map. After that first hit, you have a ladder choke (really similar and actually more dangerous than the Parish one that we are nerfing now), then later on in the map you have tunnels you have to go through that have ladder chokes as well. Plus this map is really long as it is. I'm just saying.

It's not just me throwing a bitch fit: There's more people that support my point on that topic than are against me. It's just out of the 4 that were against me were the 3 people controlling the development of the maps during CCT2. Therefore, no opinion matters that isn't their own.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 02:02:28 pm by Dyl Dough »

Map 1

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2014, 03:18:19 pm »
I kinda don't agree with any of this modifying maps to make them safer/easier/survivor friendly to justify the various configs we have scattered about. I mean, it gives a whole bunch of credence to the notion that we should just have all maps be a straight line, with the survivors having double pistols only. That way everybody is happy.

I kinda hope Valve goes in the opposite direction of map design they've had with both of the previous two games. Hopefully every map has 400 chokepoints with only one area of open space on each map. That way, its a marathon for the survivors and not a sprint. Even if its not something done intentionally. It would do wonders. They can keep the 400 health kit idealogy. Just make the maps over the top difficult so rushing would serve no purpose. Not even baiting out attacks would work cuz there would literally be a chokepoint around every corner.

To help make this come true. Now the SI will be allowed to spawn behind non solid objects such as bushes and tree brush, etc. Instead of just los solid objects that have handcuffed them two games in a row.

Dyl Dough

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2014, 03:53:58 pm »
For the idea of pubbing. I would agree with you. Competitively it would be stupid cause people would just get raped on everyone of the choke points because they are at such a disadvantage. At least with the current maps as a team the infected can work together to send out damage if they play it right. If they don't they get deservedly pooped on.

NF

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2014, 04:19:33 pm »
I kinda don't agree with any of this modifying maps to make them safer/easier/survivor friendly to justify the various configs we have scattered about. I mean, it gives a whole bunch of credence to the notion that we should just have all maps be a straight line, with the survivors having double pistols only. That way everybody is happy.

I kinda hope Valve goes in the opposite direction of map design they've had with both of the previous two games. Hopefully every map has 400 chokepoints with only one area of open space on each map. That way, its a marathon for the survivors and not a sprint. Even if its not something done intentionally. It would do wonders. They can keep the 400 health kit idealogy. Just make the maps over the top difficult so rushing would serve no purpose. Not even baiting out attacks would work cuz there would literally be a chokepoint around every corner.

To help make this come true. Now the SI will be allowed to spawn behind non solid objects such as bushes and tree brush, etc. Instead of just los solid objects that have handcuffed them two games in a row.

We already have a map that's one giant chokepoint: The Passing 2.

And it's terrible. At least from a versus perspective.

Why do people think nonstop chokepoints make things better? If you want 90% of all your damage to be from spits, sure. Might as well call it Left4Spit2. Having almost all your damage come from spits also expands the "luck" factor of the game, due to the random nature of spits. Now you have to deal with the fact that one team could gain a large advantage on a dice roll, which is precisely the opposite of what a competitive game should be. That can happen now too, but config makers have tried their best to reduce it to a minimum.

In closed areas, boomers become near useless, since common get funneled into straight lines which are easily mowed down. It's hard to get separation as well, nerfing Jockey, Charger, and especially Smoker. Playing Smoker on No Mercy, for instance (another map that is composed of nonstop chokes), is horribly boring outside of a few areas.

Also, you seemed to have missed the point of the changes. We're not setting out to make them easier for the sake of making it easier. It's been established many times, by most, if not all the best players, that ladder chokes are unbalanced, and lower the skill ceiling. They serve no place in competitive versus. To be more specific, I'm referring to ladder chokes like Parish 3, No Mercy 3+5, etc. Other ladders, like the ones on Hard Rain, are fine, because SI don't get free damage for 0 effort on them.

You also have to keep in mind that maps are being tweaked with Promod changes in mind. I.E., tier 1s only. The metagame shifts significantly when you can't output 1060 damage per second like autoshotguns can. Making a map super hard and take 30 minutes to complete might be fine with 20 medkits and tier 2s per map, but that map design breaks down in the competitive environment, as does the skill required (which is something to be emphasized, encouraged, and rewarded in versus mode).

With the low damage output of tier 1s, skill is better rewarded on both infected and survivor if the areas are semi-open (not Parish 2 park wide open, not Passing 2 closed, but somewhere inbetween). It takes no effort to charge someone down a straight hallway and get 80 damage. It takes teamwork, coordination, and chemistry to land one in an open area. The entire team must work together to damage survivors, unlike solo charging for tons of points, significantly lowering the already low infected skill ceiling. Open areas take more skill.

Re: the fire escape choke: that post was made right after the first CCT, where people first played the map and got rekt. Seems like teams know how to take it a lot better now, at least from my experience. But regardless, I do agree it should be nerfed slightly merely on the basis that that map is extremely long, so a bleed out from there will drain 2-3 pills alone throughout the map remainder (so effectively it can do hundreds of points of damage with little effort). Zeon said he had some ideas to keep it a dangerous choke, but not make it as free and effortless for special infected.

Dyl Dough

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2014, 06:13:51 pm »
God I just got hard for you NF. Not just because you guys are agreeing to look into finding a way to make that choke more balanced, but the way you just articulated that paragraph.



Thank you to both you and Zeon.

NF

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2014, 11:47:26 am »
Map 2 is done after like 10 hours of work. Gonna begin working on map 1 soon. Please post your thoughts, ideas, etc.

My todo list:

- Attempt to fix the random big fps drops in the first areas of the map
- Make early Tanks more fightable
- Improve clipping
- Maybe a couple SI ladders
- Remove the intro in versus mode only
- Fix the alarm car being glitchy
- Try to figure out why the map keeps causing crashes
- Add a new feature that shows the saferoom boundaries

ElusivΣ

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2014, 02:23:12 pm »
Would map optimizations such as too many brushes and props being rendered cause issues.  It is a decently long and large map.  Maybe certain brushes need some no draws in certain areas so unneeded textures aren't rendering, etc. just a guess.  I also wonder how the nav flow is on it as well.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 02:26:13 pm by ElusivΣ »

fig newtons

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2014, 04:11:02 pm »
Posting to say

(a) these changes sound awesome and no doubt the campaign will be hugely improved when it's done. Can't wait to see it :)

and

(b) NF is 100% right in everything he said. I'll only add emphasis that having a choke point like detour 4 ladder makes the rest of the map more or less non-existent. Example:

In our match with tableflip, they fucked the dog on their sac timing and sac order for the ladder choke. (You can hear purple raging about this in the war room since he knows how bad they had (should have) blown it.) They saced in the wrong order, and worse they saced way too late. They should have have done their hit outside saferoom, and then done one more hit for damage outside the trailer park and with better sac order. The rest of the map between the entrance to the trailer park and the ladder is for suiciding your hunter or spitter so that you can get charger/smoker/jockey/boomer. But they were killing their specials as we were approaching the ladder already and so we knew their timers were down. I died because I pressed spacebar while on the ladder, but had I not given them such a gift, then odds are good we could have killed the tank and even made the map with some kind of bonus.

On their side, we didn't make those mistakes as infected: we started killing our specials early and with careful attention to sac order the whole way, so that we had charger/smoker/jockey/boomer on the ladder. I got a death pull on hib that is nearly impossible to avoid when timed right, and lust was killed by a jockey/charger combo.

"Sounds like they made bigger mistakes than you, so what's your point fig?"

The point is this: in a high-skill game on detour 4, nothing matters except what happens on the ladder, and what happens on the ladder is what happens on the map. It is far more important than even the tank! That is a disaster for comp play because the tank is usually the most strategically deep part of game-play for both sides.

You can be killed as you approach the ladder. The whole time you are near the ladder, you can be killed by rail chargers. But you can't move away from the ladder to bait it, because you could be killed on the way back up. You can't bait by jumping while on the ladder, or you die. But if you get pulled while you're on the ladder, you die. If you manage to make it up the ladder, you can't even juke the charger or jockey because there's no space to juke. Smoker could be anywhere, and part of your fov is blocked by train cars, so cutting the tongue is unrealistic. And you're not safe until everyone is up the ladder and away from it. The last survivor up is in at least as much danger as the first one up.

Everything you do as infected before the ladder is in the service of that ladder choke. And the trailer park area, wrecked CEDA buses and military convoy before the ladder -- areas that would otherwise be interesting to attack survivors -- don't exist in the mind of a skilled infected player. I'd rather sac all my infected and get zero damage for a whole third of the map than risk not having the perfect setup for the ladder. If I had to make that choice, it would hardly be a decision at all; it's not even close. Our match with tableflip illustrates that point as well since both sides got very nice attacks right outside of the saferoom on map4, but that meant fuckall to the match scores because of what happened to both teams on the ladder.

To use Map1's analogy of "a straight open corridor that survivors can run", obviously we all agree that that would be a shitty map. But the effect of choke points like this is that that is what we have now. Infected who want to try creative timings are severely constrained by the ladder and the risk that doing something unorthodox will jeopardize their chances to get multiple kills on it. If you take that risk by doing different timings that might surprise the survivors or test their ability to perform outside of their comfort zones, then you are playing shitty infected. That means survivors can bait the hits more and more easily, and punish infected for trying to be different by blitzing the ladder with timers down or the wrong infected setup. In effect, strategicaly, detour 4 is a narrow open corridor that survivors run through until they get to jump into a meat grinder. And whoever is in better shape when they get spat out the other side wins.

Zeon, NF, and Jacob are trying to fix that. And that's great, because it should be fixed. Because until something is done the scores between evenly matched teams will mean little more than "how well each team plays map4 ladder".
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 04:41:01 pm by fig newtons »

NF

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2014, 04:37:34 pm »
Would map optimizations such as too many brushes and props being rendered cause issues.  It is a decently long and large map.  Maybe certain brushes need some no draws in certain areas so unneeded textures aren't rendering, etc. just a guess.  I also wonder how the nav flow is on it as well.

I've been working on it for a while and it certainly can be optimized. In the backgrounds of each area, there a TON of foliage, trees, bushes, etc. Way more than you can even see normally as survivor. There's also a ton of unnecessary props that are like within other props or under the ground. I found many surfaces that could be nodrawed as well.

I might tone down the fog a bit in the beginning river section, that's where people complain about fps the most. There's a lot of fog particles scattered in this area and I might remove a couple.

ElusivΣ

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Re: Detour Ahead Promod (Development)
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2014, 04:55:57 pm »
I've been working on it for a while and it certainly can be optimized. In the backgrounds of each area, there a TON of foliage, trees, bushes, etc. Way more than you can even see normally as survivor. There's also a ton of unnecessary props that are like within other props or under the ground. I found many surfaces that could be nodrawed as well.

I might tone down the fog a bit in the beginning river section, that's where people complain about fps the most. There's a lot of fog particles scattered in this area and I might remove a couple.

Ah nice. I know stuff like this takes time, so take your time and keep up the good work.

 

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