Author Topic: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis  (Read 5163 times)

NF

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Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« on: March 31, 2015, 04:51:14 am »
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=412007318&tscn=1427725832

Really good and informative guide on melee weapons. I learned a few things I didn't know before, and confirmed a few things I suspected but couldn't prove. The guide makes a good case for the CS knife being incredibly overpowered, possibly warranting the removal from promod (though some servers still force it which is pretty dumb as melee weapons are already really good). I was surprised to learn that all melees have the same range; I figured weapons like the frying pan and tonfa had a very short range, but I suppose this was confirmation bias.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 05:00:07 am by NF »

Jacob

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2015, 05:11:16 am »
I actually get mad when I'm playing on a server that forces the cs knife. It is stupidly overpowered.  :'(

Luckylock

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2015, 06:57:11 am »
I just finished reading this thing.

I'll make sure to pick up the knife next mix I play.

Simi_X1

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2015, 05:59:14 am »
Thanks NF
EX DE EX DE

Fridvy

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2015, 02:38:14 am »
I have been thinking about melee in a competitive environment for some time now. Through my own research and analysis (and consequently this ) I have theorized a few possibley good (or bad depending on how much of a scrub I am) ideas in relation to the topic of melee in competitive.
So here goes:

- remove the second melee swing, as in, set the value that determines how long after an original swing a second swing occurs too zero. Why do this? Well, by eliminating variations in melee swing hit boxes (second swing has an opposing hit scan to the first) players would be able to master charger levels more proficiently. If a player can do such thing then the overall skill ceiling will be raised. Also more importantly by removing variations in the hitbox the game will become less random and this is ultimately improves the competative environment.

-make the melee hitbox act the same as hit scan weapons. doing this will allow for a higher chance of melee skeets ect. this will also raise the evidently lacking skill ceiling of the game- thus the distinction between individual and team skill can be elucidated!

I did have other ideas but I'm not on my pc currently, I'll make an edit later when I look at the txt document I wrote.

NF

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2015, 06:46:02 am »
I have been thinking about melee in a competitive environment for some time now. Through my own research and analysis (and consequently this ) I have theorized a few possibley good (or bad depending on how much of a scrub I am) ideas in relation to the topic of melee in competitive.
So here goes:

- remove the second melee swing, as in, set the value that determines how long after an original swing a second swing occurs too zero. Why do this? Well, by eliminating variations in melee swing hit boxes (second swing has an opposing hit scan to the first) players would be able to master charger levels more proficiently. If a player can do such thing then the overall skill ceiling will be raised. Also more importantly by removing variations in the hitbox the game will become less random and this is ultimately improves the competative environment.

The melee swing animations aren't random; they cycle through the same patterns every time. If you were to remove the alternate swing, it would actually take LESS skill, because you would no longer have to keep track of and compensate for the alternate swing.

Quote
-make the melee hitbox act the same as hit scan weapons

u w0t m8
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 06:53:58 am by NF »

Fridvy

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2015, 10:18:23 pm »
good point, however making it easier wasnt neccesarily the point i just ment that if it was removed the game would be less random..

and for the second point, yes I am also "wotting" at the statement i wrote haha. What i actually ment was that make the melee hitrays give damage based on the highest possible damage they can output while disregarding any other hitboxes the rays impact with, meaning that you would be able to kill multiple SI's in one swing because the the second hit ray impact would be registered in contrast to the nullified damage output with current vanilla melee physics...

3yebex

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2015, 01:27:44 am »
If you were to remove the alternate swing, it would actually take LESS skill, because you would no longer have to keep track of and compensate for the alternate swing.
Jacob is already removing things that increase skill-level for the sake of consistency anyways. We've made shoves always cause the full-duration stumble so no instant re-jocks/pounces (Which took skill to know when it was going to happen). Survivors can no longer get a "free" melee off on Tank before his punch is recharging after he's cornered you (Took skill to avoid getting hit by these as Tank). Fixed Charger chest bumps (While these took skill to avoid, IE. angling your charge, it was still a bit annoying).

Dusty

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2015, 01:56:57 am »
Quote
Jacob is already removing things that increase skill-level for the sake of consistency anyways. We've made shoves always cause the full-duration stumble so no instant re-jocks/pounces (Which took skill to know when it was going to happen). Survivors can no longer get a "free" melee off on Tank before his punch is recharging after he's cornered you (Took skill to avoid getting hit by these as Tank). Fixed Charger chest bumps (While these took skill to avoid, IE. angling your charge, it was still a bit annoying).

Dude they took out punching jockey'd people as tank for instant incaps and ass punches as tank, took skill to know how to use and avoid these /s.

Having knowledge of broken mechanics to increase your skill isn't how it should work. Go work on your aim or awareness.

NF

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2015, 04:10:13 am »
good point, however making it easier wasnt neccesarily the point i just ment that if it was removed the game would be less random..

Quote from: NF
The melee swing animations aren't random; they cycle through the same patterns every time.

Quote from: OSIRIS
and for the second point, yes I am also "wotting" at the statement i wrote haha. What i actually ment was that make the melee hitrays give damage based on the highest possible damage they can output while disregarding any other hitboxes the rays impact with, meaning that you would be able to kill multiple SI's in one swing because the the second hit ray impact would be registered in contrast to the nullified damage output with current vanilla melee physics...

Oh, I see. That does sound pretty interesting, it would be fun to try out. But I don't really think melee weapons should get any better... they're already really good.

Quote from: Xbye
Jacob is already removing things that increase skill-level for the sake of consistency anyways. We've made shoves always cause the full-duration stumble so no instant re-jocks/pounces (Which took skill to know when it was going to happen). Survivors can no longer get a "free" melee off on Tank before his punch is recharging after he's cornered you (Took skill to avoid getting hit by these as Tank). Fixed Charger chest bumps (While these took skill to avoid, IE. angling your charge, it was still a bit annoying).

I see what you mean by that line of thinking, but it could easily be a slippery slope to removing everything that's even slightly varied. Why even have m2s? I have to keep track of and compensate for the cooldown. Should just remove it. Why have ammo either? Same deal. /s

But seriously, you make a good point, I never thought of it in that way. Consisency is a good thing, but we should be careful to not be so adamant in consistency that you sterilize the game by removing anything different (see: L4D1)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 10:10:11 am by NF »

Dusty

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2015, 09:25:05 am »
Quote
How is a different animation playing a "broken mechanic"? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I was never talking about different melee animations. Only the shitty examples he used.

NF

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2015, 10:10:34 am »
I was never talking about different melee animations. Only the shitty examples he used.

Oh, my bad, I read your post too quickly and misinterpreted it.  :P

Jacob

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2015, 12:28:14 pm »
Jacob is already removing things that increase skill-level for the sake of consistency anyways. We've made shoves always cause the full-duration stumble so no instant re-jocks/pounces (Which took skill to know when it was going to happen). Survivors can no longer get a "free" melee off on Tank before his punch is recharging after he's cornered you (Took skill to avoid getting hit by these as Tank). Fixed Charger chest bumps (While these took skill to avoid, IE. angling your charge, it was still a bit annoying).

Your points can all be refuted by doing this:
>We've made shoves always cause the full-duration stumble so no instant re-jocks/pounces
Increased skill cap on infected. Don't let your teammate get shoved off unpunished.
>Survivors can no longer get a "free" melee off on Tank before his punch is recharging after he's cornered you
Increased skill cap on survivor. Don't get cornered.
>Fixed Charger chest bumps
Increased skill cap on survivor. Don't walk in front of a charger.

The point is that these have no negative effect on "skill cap" because they have positives and negatives for it that balance out. All you're doing is writing a narrative that supports your opinion without looking at it objectively. What they actually do is remove annoying / inconsistent mechanics with minimal impact on the skill ceiling, and in some cases can raise the skill ceiling. I'm open to the discussion though, if you really believe the negatives outweigh the positives then I'd like to hear why.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 12:54:56 pm by Jacob »

3yebex

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 01:51:14 am »
>We've made shoves always cause the full-duration stumble so no instant re-jocks/pounces
Increased skill cap on infected. Don't let your teammate get shoved off unpunished.
Removed awareness to realize that Hunter/Jockey was about to get an instant-rejock. I don't know how to explain it, but there was always a gut feeling for me to know when to M2 again afterwards and my gut was right most of the time.

>Survivors can no longer get a "free" melee off on Tank before his punch is recharging after he's cornered you
Increased skill cap on survivor. Don't get cornered.
Tanks should learn to pay attention and back away before each punch on a cornered survivor.

>Fixed Charger chest bumps
Increased skill cap on survivor. Don't walk in front of a charger.
Don't get so close to the Survivor. Though, I'm all for this. I really hated charger chest-bumps.

I'm looking at it objectively. You are, in a sense, removing skills that were originally apart of the game for the sake of consistency. Do those create other skill-caps? Yes. However, those are skills that I'm not happy about as it creates a more blander(imo) experience. A tank corners someone... that's it. That survivor can't fight back. Tank doesn't have to pay attention to his placement and the survivor can't learn to time his melee swings to hit the tank when it backs up. It's more straight-forward. Same goes for shoves.

If you want to create a more straight-forward, consistent config. That's fine. I'm just saying, it's removing skills and not introducing any new ones of similar caliber.

Fridvy

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Re: Melee Weapon Detailed Analysis
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 02:52:22 am »
Yep, all these points seem valid in a sense. all I'm trying to say is that by removing randomness and raising individual skill cap, emphasis can be placed on individual improvmemt and thus on a larger scale team cohesion. What I was theorizing recently was that to improve the comp environment of l4d one would need to put emphasis on the need for individual skill and thus team skill... But don't be fast to judge this statement because it doesn't mean what you think it does- this concept entails: make the skill gap greater- so for example make it so that teams and players who train and think about the game constructively have a huge advantage over those who don't. Make it so that skill out weighs luck- while keeping a fair balance between luck and skill because l4d certainly isn't starcraft et cetera.

Basically that is the synopsis of my argument.
Also while I have the devs attention I'd also like to ask about another improvement: removing stupid clipping... for example make car edges straight with physics materials so that players don't get the idiotic slipping off effect (removing stupid props like road cones that trap survivors) Another example would include adding more props around the maps so that unnecessary higher grounds could be reached. Also while adding more props, devs could limit spawing, making si attacks more stream lined and pre-planned. By making these changes it is my opinion that emphasis upon team cohesion, individual skill, individual aim, team aim (crossfire/concentrating fire ect.), si strategy and si skill Will be massively increased.. Dunno really the drugs been hitting me hard. Thoughts? I'm actually obsessed..

 

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