Poll

Your opnion on hittables

They are fine the way they are and require no change
I feel changes should be made to hittables, but nothing drastic
I think hittables need a big change
I think hittables should be removed
Other (explain in post please)

Author Topic: Let's talk about hittables  (Read 18617 times)

sygnus

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Let's talk about hittables
« on: April 25, 2014, 03:59:13 pm »
HOW I FEEL ABOUT THE STATE OF HITTABLES

 Hittables add depth to tank play and general infected strategy. they have been a part of the metagame since launch, and remain to this day as key utility during tank fights. My opinion on this topic has changed over the years, but it simply keeps resounding to me that it is ultimately a not-so-fun experience (as survivor) and encourages a reliance on an instant-wipe mechanic that can not allways, but sometimes be pure luck. I feel the same way about hittables, as I do about choke points where infected need to attack because it gives you too much free damage that its impossible to ignore, and we've been taking steps to eliminate / nerf those as well. I think this is our next step.

NOW HEAR ME OUT

Before you share your opinion, or you start flaming me for being mad every time I eat a dumpster or a log, think about this for a second. What sense does it make that in a competative environment we have mechanics still in place in the game that are low risk high reward? There is almost no reason to not try and get a lucky car, or a random incap by just throwing punches in a general direction of a survivor squad?

But sygnus, hittables do require skill!

Of course, it follows the same physics as the rest of the objects in the game, however I don't understand why they immediately incapacitate a survivor. I feel like, once a team has become well enough versed in tank strategy, hitttables simply become a crutch for poorly skilled or lazy teams to be able to stop anyone they feel like, all that is required is help from his team to immediately murder poor coach for being too fat and slow.

ALRIGHT SMART ASS, WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST WE DO?

There are number of things I could see happening that would minimize the effect it has on standard metagame, some are more drastic then others, but my perfect world would consist of a L4D with hittables that no longer destroy teams simply because of the fact that its an instant wipe mechanic with low risk.

Idea 1: Reduce the damage from 100 to between 50-75. This still poses a huge threat to the survivors, rocks and punches do 24 damage, so you'd still want hittables, however a full health survivor team would reap the benefits of actually having high health bonus pre-tank. This would be my preferred change.
Idea 2: Remove hittables and replace the tank power somewhere else, possibly by buffing tank punch / rock damage or removing survivor melee weapons. I don't see this as a reasonable possibility as it would change the game too drasticly and I think it would affect the game in a negative way.
Idea 3 proposed by NF: Remove particularly awkward hittables (forklift, for example) in favor of hittables that result in less RNG (ala dumpster) to avoid the stigma constantly associated with the hittable-focused tank fights. This is seen as half-way meeting point.

Closing thoughts

Please take this conversation seriously, And think before you cast your vote or post. I really want this game to be more popular, more fun. And we can only make those steps together. I will be happy with the outcome regardless of what happens, I just want to know how the community feels.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 01:20:12 am by sygnus »

Visor

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2014, 04:09:32 pm »
https://github.com/Attano/Equilibrium/blob/master/README.md

Quote
New config: JaegerMod

Tank hittables deal only 48 dmg
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

Comment

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2014, 04:11:45 pm »
Tank hittables should do 75 damage. but limit Uzis to 2. bring on left 4 shotties BUT REMOVE CHROME SHOTGUNS FROM THE GAME TOO OP
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 04:15:35 pm by Comment »

sygnus

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2014, 04:24:16 pm »
The Jaeger mod looks interesting, however I still feel like this discussion should happen. I don't know how excited the rest of the NA community would be in trying out an EQ mod with quad caps, no deadstops or jockies, on top of nerfed hittables.

Visor

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2014, 04:49:19 pm »
Just an experimental config. Any critically acclaimed feature from it might pave its way into EQ. The Spitter equalizer is the first to be approved.
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

Dragon

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2014, 04:54:18 pm »
I'm indifferent towards hittables, doesn't really bother me what does or doesn't happen to them. If I had to lean in one direction, I'd be open to lowering the damage of hittables, although I must admit that part of the reason why I'd welcome this sort of change is because way too many tanks these days choose the dumbed-down option of smashing hittables around until they're no longer within reach. Some tank players will even screw their SI support, still be under 1000 hp and try and go all-in with hittables and they're left wondering why the caveman tactic fails them. A few players in Europe (not naming names) are ridiculously notorious for this: they will abandon any other approach if given one or two hittables and either the support lands, the survivors make mistakes with their positioning, or the tank just flops.

Of course, those players will rage like mad over anything less than an instant incap from a hittable because they become almost entirely dependent on that approach whenever possible. But it would be an overall benefit if hittables were lessened as to not be a crutch but rather an extra alternative for dealing damage. Hittables can still be used but there'd be more of a requirement for support to keep the survivors in position if the tank wishes to maintain constant use of hittables. It would certainly enforce the need for more team work and tank play to be more controlled and calculated in general.

I'd be willing to try either what is in Jaegermod already (48 dmg per hittable) or maybe limit the amount of hittables to being 1 or 2 max in any given area. Any change which encourages players to not depend as much on a crutch to carry them is always a positive.




eTronic

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2014, 05:10:53 pm »
however I don't understand why they immediately incapacitate a survivor.


Yeah, it's not like it's a 2 ton+ car/log/dumpster or anything.

Idea 2: Remove hittables and replace the tank power somewhere else, possibly by buffing tank punch / rock damage


We could always implement dust's ideas.

In all seriousness though, what do you do about areas where it seems to me (the noob I am) hittables are somewhat needed (aka Death Toll map 4 where the tank spawns I want to say 99% of the time). It seems some tank spawns/areas you have hittables are either OP, and some they are needed. Just my two cents. Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot and I should learn to play tank better.  :P

BUT REMOVE CHROME SHOTGUNS FROM THE GAME TOO OP


Please don't  :'(
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 05:17:00 pm by eTronic »

SiDEWAYSBOX

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2014, 05:26:12 pm »
I don't like this idea, at all.

NF

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2014, 05:40:15 pm »
I definitely don't support them being removed, or anything else removed for that matter. I understand that they're pseudo-random, but if we start removing things on the basis of "it can be random" then you will need to remove (almost literally) everything from the game. We basically just have to accept that certain things are going to have that element of unpredictability and if you're still playing L4D for it's "competitiveness" then you're playing for the wrong reasons (not saying you in particular, but just for anyone in general).

That being said, hittables that do less damage could be interesting to try, but I think they will make Tanks way more lame for both teams. It's always hype to see a hittable land, because you know shit just hit the fan and the tides of the game are about to turn. Nerfing them to 48 damage for example would be kinda boring.

Twisted

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2014, 05:52:05 pm »
Yeah, it's not like it's a 2 ton+ car/log/dumpster or anything.


Realism and video games should never go together. For fucks sake you are playing a zombie game.

Hittables can be retarded most of the times, hopefully something changes.

Example A:
triple b

Example B: @0:20
http://youtu.be/d_tAuwMMsfY?t=21s

Example C: @1:30
http://youtu.be/TJXU6syh3r8?t=1m27s

Stupid shit like that can just ruin the whole match.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 06:10:38 pm by Twisted »

NF

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2014, 06:06:54 pm »
OH, speaking of hittables and randomness. I think most would agree some hittables are more random than others, especially ones like the forklift due to its weird shape.

Instead of removing it, what if I swapped out the forklift for another hittable, such as a dumpster? Mainly thinking of areas like Dark Carn 2 (I'm still annoyed valve made the dumpster that was there unhittable because of some obscure vanilla exploit...) and Dark Carn 5.

Jacob

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2014, 06:14:24 pm »
My vote is for leaving hittables at instant incap, but doing only 24 damage to incapped players. #controversial

To expand on my opinion. I think having different kinds of hittables is nice and I wouldn't want everything to be a dumpster. The different kinds require different kinds of hits. I think it would be nice if on DT3 we changed the car back to a forklift and made the dumpster hittable to match the way that tank played in l4d1.

I think that hittables kill way too quickly and potentially severely punish a team for something that could have been out of their control. An incap is plenty of damage and a big enough reward. You shouldn't be able to straight up kill someone in 4 seconds.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 06:22:11 pm by Jacob »

Dyl Dough

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2014, 06:22:23 pm »
They are fine. Yes at times random, but overall we need a little bit of that in the game in my opinion. It makes it more interesting. If you don't want to eat a hittable always pay attention to what's above you. Especially when you hear the tank hit something from a mile away. I know I always look up towards the tank if he has a hittable available.

Marvalz

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2014, 06:33:45 pm »
Hittables can be retarded most of the times, hopefully something changes.

Example A:
triple b

Example B: @0:20
http://youtu.be/d_tAuwMMsfY?t=21s

Example C: @1:30
http://youtu.be/TJXU6syh3r8?t=1m27s

Stupid shit like that can just ruin the whole match.


That's all zero awareness and/or bad teamwork. Don't go next to the car unless it's not moving. It's pretty simple. I'm going to assume you were joking now, have a nice day.

I'd just like to add that sygnus ate a bumper car in a pug that was 100% avoidable right before he made this thread. I can't take you seriously if that hittable put you over the edge to make this, sygnus.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 06:41:28 pm by Marvalz »

NF

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Re: Let's talk about hittables
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2014, 06:34:56 pm »
My vote is for leaving hittables at instant incap, but doing only 24 damage to incapped players. #controversial

To expand on my opinion. I think having different kinds of hittables is nice and I wouldn't want everything to be a dumpster. The different kinds require different kinds of hits. I think it would be nice if on DT3 we changed the car back to a forklift and made the dumpster hittable to match the way that tank played in l4d1.

I think that hittables kill way too quickly and potentially severely punish a team for something that could have been out of their control. An incap is plenty of damage and a big enough reward. You shouldn't be able to straight up kill someone in 4 seconds.

In my experience, getting a kill with a hittable isn't that bad. Usually the hittable lands after the SI attack goes in and caps someone. The Tank then basically sacrifices himself to get the kill, it's pretty unlikely for him to get multiple kills or incaps afterwards, because while he's killing the downed guy, the other 3 survivors are ripping into him.

So you basically trade your Tank life for a survivor life. I think that's OK.


Also @twisted, you picked bad examples. The first vid was completely avoidable and was 100% the survivor's fault for walking up to a moving hittable for no reason. The second one was Nick backing up and running without turning around to pay attention to where he was going. Only the 3rd vid was a bit more understandable, that one seemed harder to avoid but not impossible. He should've went under the balcony, between the poles where the car won't fit instead of standing in the open.

 

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