Author Topic: How is that legit kill?  (Read 6530 times)

iamSun

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How is that legit kill?
« on: August 20, 2017, 12:22:38 am »
https://youtu.be/yB8T2wefVIM?t=8m38s

Lock clears full hp hunter from a mile away while incapped, boomed, swarmed by horde, with 300 ms, with single normal pistol and with not a single shot missed and right when he needed that clear the most.


Fridays

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2017, 12:37:36 am »
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 07:43:35 am by Fridays »

Lupee

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2017, 12:50:57 am »
It was flagged but the admins didn't think is was suspicous

Fridays

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2017, 01:30:19 am »
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 07:44:06 am by Fridays »

sinclair

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2017, 09:06:09 am »
A few things regarding this matter.
- yes, his ping was ~200 and he was boomed, but the way the fence is structured, the commons were not in gathering between the downed survivor and the pounced survivor.
- Incap aim is the same no matter what. Whether you are boomed or not. It isn't changed like aim when standing when you get boomed.
- He knew where that survivor was. We showed the clip to a few different people and the consensus was that it it appears very lucky, but not impossible to clear that.
- To overrturn a match, disqualify a player / team a certain threshold of evidence needs to be met.
- Agavond asked us to look into this clip specifically, and we did. After that, while they did not agree with our decision on, they said they no longer wished to dispute any further points / the match.  Had they, we would. Alone this clip might not DQ them, but if there were multiple instances of WTF luck it isn't something we'd ignore

Rails

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2017, 09:08:08 am »
I can understand why people think its suspicious, but even when reviewing the demo for the first time it was clear it was incredible luck and not a hack. All three admins reviewed the demos and came to the same unanimous conclusion.

An Avagond vs Florida final would have actually been worth watching in my opinion but no we end up with the same boring old shit. Pathetic fucking ending to a good tournament in my opinion. Definitely grounds for a disqualification..

This has absolutely nothing to do with the demo review. Welcome to comp l4d2, where the same players usually make the finals and the people who play the game the most win the tournies!

Release the demo and allow the community to make a decision about the legitimacy of the kill.

Right, because whatever the majority of a community thinks is a good barometer for whether something is legit or not, especially this commmunity. ::)
I look forward to this post being taken down so that you can continue running a corrupt system for a game that has less teams then I can count with one hand.

ProdigySim

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2017, 01:58:51 pm »

Freoxity

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2017, 09:50:56 pm »

iamSun

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2017, 01:15:00 am »
Cheating was often pretty hard to notice 5 years ago. Don't you think that cheats in 2017 can be even more advanced and it can be very hard to notice them while watching the demo? Maybe there is almoust no more shaking, no more sharp unhuman moves and so on?

I don't think you even need the demo to weight an odds of this happening.



Fridays

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2017, 04:47:13 am »
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 08:07:21 am by Fridays »

sinclair

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2017, 07:13:24 am »
You genuinely cannot say that this was legit or wasn't legit, especially given the history of the player.
null could be cheating or not cheating. thats not up for debate. the only thing up for debate is whether this clip demonstrates if he is / isnt cheating. as you just said it's isn't conclusive enough to warrant the dq. agavond asked us only to review this and no more. i hope this helps people understand our decision

ProdigySim

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2017, 05:26:08 pm »
it would be impossible to tell wether he was using a trigger seed to force the bullet to have the right trajectory.

...

 its literally just bullets being given a new trajectory onto the target within a given fov and WITHOUT any manipulation of the players screen in demos or while being spectated

I've never heard of any cheat that can "force the trajectory of the bullet". Generally bullet trajectory is deteremined on the server side and client side separately through a shared RNG.

Generally, anti-recoil works by knowing the shared RNG seed/acculumator and turning the client's aim to compensate for the trajectory of the next bullet (which it can predict). I have seen that some anti-recoil cheats will do this entirely without changing what the user sees (i.e. the user's screen does not "shake") but it still would appear in spectator view, if not in the demo as well.

I looked up a bit about "Seed Trigger" or "TriggerSeed" cheats. They're definitely pretty scary. But in this case there are a few reasons to think it's probably not such a cheat:

From the first person perspective of the player (I don't have the link sorry), they were not moving their cursor noticeably. They were looking at a single spot and firing repeatedly. For this to be the result of some cheat, the cheat would have had to set their aim to a specific point in order to have the killing shot land N shots ahead. This is not the MO of trigger seed cheats from what I see online: They generally let the user aim, and trigger the shot when their aim is going to land a headshot.

Additionally, if a cheat is going to wait for RNG to deal them the right shot... then it's not really distinguishable from a human waiting for RNG to deal them the right shot.

Quote
If extreme luck is the only thing that can be used to justify this situation,  how then can you say that he wasn't using a triggerseed?
It's not extreme luck. It's moderate luck.

Take note of the spec hud during the clip, as well as when the player starts shooting. By my count he takes about 10 shots to clear the hunter, in 4 different hits--of which only 1 is a headshot.

It's a range of less than 10 feet I'd say, and he's using a single pistol (much smaller incap spread).

Go into a server and reproduce the scenario 20x and tell me how many shots on average it takes you to clear the hunter, as well as how many bullets land. He's lucky he got one headshot. Otherwise, it's not all that lucky. The player aimed quickly, aimed well (so that the hunter's hitbox covers almost 50% of the spread) and shot a lot.



I tried it myself, and I averaged about 30 bullets to to clear the hunter over 15 tries or so (including once in about 12 shots). And I'm not a tournament winning player. I did my best to compensate for the aim sway, and use what knowledge of the spread pattern I had (which may be placebo), but I would guess that a good player could do better.

What I'm getting at is that "extremely lucky" would be something like 0.1% or at best 1%. This is something like a 5% occurrence for a high skill player.


As an aside: Pavel won blizzcon in Hearthstone by getting a RNG-dependent card that's a <1% chance. He also keeps winning tournaments at a higher rate than any other player. Is Blizzard influencing his RNG or is he just a really good player that played long enough to get VERY lucky in an important match once?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 05:30:30 pm by ProdigySim »

Fridays

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2017, 02:46:58 am »
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 08:07:50 am by Fridays »

purple

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2017, 06:37:05 am »
And I'm not a tournament winning player.

I'm afraid Team Royalty is going to have to revoke your tampax sponsorship due to this statement.

bryan

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Re: How is that legit kill?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2017, 10:25:30 am »

 

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