Author Topic: Acemod V2  (Read 11391 times)

itsSkup

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2016, 06:46:18 am »
A couple of things.

First of all, I think it's VERY good you reply so quickly, keeps the thread going and interesting, and as you can see I'm not the only one who likes to discuss their frustrations about this config.

Secondly, yes and no about being "forced" to do anything. BOT is using Acemod, so I am "forced" to play this config. Sure, I can just decide to not play the tournament because of this, but that would be a bit too dramatic for my taste. Besides, it's the biggest tournament this game has seen in years, hard to just let it go by.

All that I'm trying to say is that, there's always been frustrations about this tank spot, and with the previous approach this was sort of fixed, the tank fight was horde free and it was more about the SI and tank working well together, which is a good thing, and since you said it yourself, every tank should be able to wipe if the SI work well together. (Although, it's not just the SI working well together, it's also about the survivors making mistakes)

Lastly, in my opinion, you still didn't formulate why you chose for this change, besides it just being a thing to spice things up. My question to you is, is this decision solely based on your preference or is this decision actually based on any of the feedback of the users of the config. Any good designer knows that you design around the user, it's really cool you like the color green, but maybe are most of the users more into pink. I know doing proper research can be a bitch, especially in a community where people come and go, but that's just my usual way of doing things in a professional way.

Also, my "friends" and their friendly trolling have nothing to do with me posting here, there's no need to point it out. I can assure you the trolling was all in good fun.

Rails

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2016, 07:06:28 am »

Acemod will not use Promod's approach. Suggest a different one if you have some in mind, but nothing that switches survivor guns.


If I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be), I thought there was a plugin in place which blocked the melee swing without even switching survivor guns -- i.e., someone could have their melee out, get hit by the tank, and simply not be able to swing without any change in their selected weapon whatsoever. I'm not sure the specifics of it, but I was almost certain there was some fix to the issue prior to the whole 'switch the weapon automatically/gun drop' debacle which prevented melee swings from survs in-between punches.
I look forward to this post being taken down so that you can continue running a corrupt system for a game that has less teams then I can count with one hand.

Sir

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2016, 10:06:03 am »
Secondly, yes and no about being "forced" to do anything. BOT is using Acemod, so I am "forced" to play this config. Sure, I can just decide to not play the tournament because of this, but that would be a bit too dramatic for my taste. Besides, it's the biggest tournament this game has seen in years, hard to just let it go by.

Way to take things out of context ;D
I'm pretty sure he was talking about your way of dealing with events/attacks/hordes, etc.
Not about playing the config or not.

Any good designer knows that you design around the user, it's really cool you like the color green, but maybe are most of the users more into pink. I know doing proper research can be a bitch, especially in a community where people come and go, but that's just my usual way of doing things in a professional way.

It's an interesting comparison, but I don't think the kind of designer you're using in your example is the kind of designer you should be thinking as when it comes to development for a game (config)
Players don't always know what they want, and "researching" what people would like, is usually not the way to go.

In order to see how everyone takes it, you need to release it to the community.
You're basically getting everyone to playtest your changes, and then you collect feedback regarding that change (even though it'll mostly be without anything concrete other than "lol this sucks" or "well this <insert other config> doesn't use it)

If I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be), I thought there was a plugin in place which blocked the melee swing without even switching survivor guns -- i.e., someone could have their melee out, get hit by the tank, and simply not be able to swing without any change in their selected weapon whatsoever. I'm not sure the specifics of it, but I was almost certain there was some fix to the issue prior to the whole 'switch the weapon automatically/gun drop' debacle which prevented melee swings from survs in-between punches.

Correct, this was my approach.
Unfortunately it results into confused players, which would either call the server or config "crap" rather than trying to understand what's going on or even bother reading the changelog.

I can understand the frustration though, not being able to use the weapon you're holding while you can move can be quite confusing and is simply a lazy fix.
Variations of this approach could be considered, but aren't solid solutions to the problem.
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itsSkup

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2016, 10:43:43 am »
Yea, I know he was talking about that, but the config is forcing me to play like that. Sure, maybe it's a bit out of context, but that's the point I was trying to make; the way of dealing of things seem a bit imbalanced, although I might still figure out a certain way that works good.

And I can respect the current way of doing things, I'm just curious when do you decide something works or not. The players are the one who play the game almost every day, they do have a certain idea of how things could be better/different. Anyway, I understand how tricky all of this must be and I hope I explained my opinion more than just a simple "lol that sucks".
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 10:50:15 am by itsSkup »

Luckylock

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2016, 10:46:04 am »
Thanks for the update, welcomed changes for the most part.

I'd really like to see melees, if not limited to 1 or 2 (most simple option), have a cooldown after swinging. machetes + nightsticks don't make for a good tank fight.

Not sure about this one but there might be a flaw in the bonus system. Does repeatedly incapping / dealing damage on someone's temp health reduce the damage bonus more than killing him from solid HP? Killing someone with a car as tank when they had solid HP didn't seem to affect the bonus much.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 10:47:51 am by Lucky »

Dusty

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2016, 11:37:11 am »
Quote
Not sure about this one but there might be a flaw in the bonus system. Does repeatedly incapping / dealing damage on someone's temp health reduce the damage bonus more than killing him from solid HP? Killing someone with a car as tank when they had solid HP didn't seem to affect the bonus much.

Killing someone from full HB will only delete their HB, not damage bonus. Damage bonus is simply damage dealt to survivors with temporary HP, (Which isn't included on an incapped survivor).

Quote
If I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be), I thought there was a plugin in place which blocked the melee swing without even switching survivor guns -- i.e., someone could have their melee out, get hit by the tank, and simply not be able to swing without any change in their selected weapon whatsoever. I'm not sure the specifics of it, but I was almost certain there was some fix to the issue prior to the whole 'switch the weapon automatically/gun drop' debacle which prevented melee swings from survs in-between punches.

Correct, this was my approach.
Unfortunately it results into confused players, which would either call the server or config "crap" rather than trying to understand what's going on or even bother reading the changelog.

I can understand the frustration though, not being able to use the weapon you're holding while you can move can be quite confusing and is simply a lazy fix.
Variations of this approach could be considered, but aren't solid solutions to the problem.

I feel this is the way it needs to be, The tanks punch recharging faster does not at all fix the problem of a survivor being able to melee you before you can punch him again, If you do this on a 100 hp survivor, that's a free 1200 damage from a survivor that shouldn't be able to do anything (That is if 300 damage is what melee does to tank, I can't remember)

Quote
This doesn't fall in line with my vision of choice-enabled competitive L4D2. Survivors should be the ones setting up their battlefield, not the config, not the SI. The fact that not all teams have the necessary skill to make it through the whole horde before losing too much HP and being forced to trigger the tank is a different question.

I felt like the decision to wait out the horde before or push into horde and spawn tank was already the survivors decision, then the tank had the decision to either push in with remaining horde that would come in before stopping, or play long. Both teams had decisions to make a decision to make it and felt much more dynamic.

Now it seems like the only choice for the survivors to make is wait out the event if there is an event tank, unless they are going to deathrace for points.

Quote
I feel shotgun damage buff was simply too much, I'm not sure of the numbers being used in this, but I feel a number somewhere between vanilla and EQ's now would be much better.

Are you willing to discuss the numbers on this buff? because I was never able to actually see the change in the changelog.


I feel like SMG could use a QOL buff and get more reserve ammo like the shotgun did? SMG was the easier gun to run out of ammo with even before shotgun got bonus reserve ammo. I'd like to hear your/anyone elses thought on that.



Visor

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2016, 12:15:10 pm »
To everyone reporting bugs or "flaws" without any VODs or screenshots for reference: don't waste time. Come back when you have some proof. I'm not going to bother looking for bugs that might not exist. I have witnesses who can confirm that every report that came along with a stream recording attached to it ended up being addressed.

Lastly, in my opinion, you still didn't formulate why you chose for this change, besides it just being a thing to spice things up. My question to you is, is this decision solely based on your preference or is this decision actually based on any of the feedback of the users of the config. Any good designer knows that you design around the user, it's really cool you like the color green, but maybe are most of the users more into pink. I know doing proper research can be a bitch, especially in a community where people come and go, but that's just my usual way of doing things in a professional way.
What Sir said.

If you have actual professional experience in any domain, then you should be aware of the fact that there are plenty of stumbling blocks that might not be evident from the start, especially in a field that is alien to you. Your suggested approach won't work in config making, nor any game making for that matter. The most players should be able to contribute with is generalised ideas("i want a jetpack in the game") and donations. That's it. My experience tells me that listening to the community when it comes to subtleties and specifics is a waste of passion. It can be discussed, but that's about it, don't get pissed if your idea ends up ditched.

You keep asking me why I made the decision to allow the horde to spawn during tanks. I was hoping it would be obvious from my previous post, but if it's not, I'll digest it further(and for the last time).

In non-Acemod configs, event hordes may or not spawn during tank fights. That is established on a per-map basis via special map scripts called nut scripts. This is what everyone has gotten used to, including yourself. You know that some events are paused when the tank is up, others are not, and the third category can be mixed like parish 2, where you can pause the horde as long as you're not advancing past a certain spot.

In Acemod, in a situation where a tank is to spawn during an event, you have two very clear conscious choices:
  • rush through the event and face both the tank and the event per-se(commons) simultaneously
  • don't rush through the event, clear all the commons first, fight the tank second

There is no third choice, aka "ok guys fuck it let's trigger the tank now, the horde stops anyway ezpz". That would be a half-measure and would defeat the purpose of finite hordes. I want the survivors to have two very clear, distinct gameplay choices, not a combination of both that works only in the favour of one side. I want it that way because it's my vision and I believe it's supremely fair and logical from a competitive standpoint. I hope I made it clear this time.

Yea, I know he was talking about that, but the config is forcing me to play like that.
No offence, but perhaps you just can't handle the other options it gives you? I have no reason to prefer camping, I don't find it as a viable choice in most situations, so obviously I wouldn't leave it as the only option for the players.

I can give you a hint: you will keep missing on or be unable to use the opportunities the game provides you with, for as long as you remain confident that aim and awareness compensation mechanics such as m2 and tank slowdown belong to competitive l4d2. To get rid of that, certain things must change. Which ones exactly I'm afraid you have to figure out on your own, assuming you care enough to do that.

although I might still figure out a certain way that works good.
You certainly might, this is even my personal opinion from what I've seen of you in-game. You have potential. Unfortunately, at the moment you're bottlenecked. I won't go into specifics.

Killing someone from full HB will only delete their HB, not damage bonus. Damage bonus is simply damage dealt to survivors with temporary HP, (Which isn't included on an incapped survivor).
Nope, wrong. A proportional amount is subtracted from damage bonus as well. If that is not the case from your experience, you were playing on outdated/poorly configured servers.

Here is the line of code that proves it. Even if you don't understand code, variable names are pretty intuitive and the algebraic operators used in the instruction are obvious.

Are you willing to discuss the numbers on this buff? because I was never able to actually see the change in the changelog.

I feel like SMG could use a QOL buff and get more reserve ammo like the shotgun did? SMG was the easier gun to run out of ammo with even before shotgun got bonus reserve ammo. I'd like to hear your/anyone elses thought on that.
I disagree on the melee nerf against tank, it's not intuitive and it's simply a very poor decision. However I'm ready to discuss shotgun and smg ammo numbers.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 12:26:48 pm by Visor »
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

itsSkup

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2016, 12:38:20 pm »
Thanks for the reply.

I don't think it's fair to call the third choice "ok guys fuck it let's trigger the tank now, the horde stops anyway ezpz", it's like what Dusty said, the tank can either decide to go in or not and make use of the horde.

Also, pretty cool of you to say I got potential, not so cool saying I'm bottlenecked. :-)

Anyway, I won't really get pissed if my idea gets ditched, I'm pretty used to killing ideas. I'm just concerned as my position as a player, what do I have to do to get some influence, would it help if I had a big group of players backing me up? Or do I simply have to abide by your rules, since you're the config maker. To be fair, you are the one that puts your time and skills into creating these kind of configs, so I respect that, I really do. I'm just saying, is there any point for me to continue posting?

Visor

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2016, 12:52:30 pm »
You can convince me that the moon is made out of cheese if you try hard enough.

There's always a point in posting, as you can see I am actually listening to valid feedback and ideas and discussing them. The problem is that most players can't properly word their thoughts and their posts end up looking like "feature x sucks, replace it with my beloved feature y". There's no potential for a constructive talk to derivate from that.

Now if the poster were to add a neutral "z" variant to that, and a couple of arguments to support his suggestion(other than "it's broken and stupid because i don't like it or can't figure it out, go for what i say"), then yeah, it would have all the chances to materialize.
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

hib

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2016, 01:02:21 pm »
If one survivor is dead and three survivors make saferoom with 100 perm HP each, they get 75% of the total bonus, no more no less. Did you play a map worth 200 points distance and went afk after the first attack?..

No, it was on map 4 of death toll. The survivor team was able to make it to the saferoom with 3 people (good job for them). We killed prodigysim or someone with a hittable the beginning of the map of death toll 4, only to have their bonus be deducted by 100-200 out of 1600 or whatever the max bonus is for that map.

I'll attempt to recreate the scenario. Also, usually one of my friends records/streams (han or lucky) but we didn't. I even asked them, "hey did you record that by any chance?". I'll repost my findings with recordings when i do.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 01:14:04 pm by hib »

ProdigySim

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2016, 01:19:20 pm »
No, it was on map 4 of death toll. The survivor team was able to make it to the saferoom with 3 people (good job for them). We killed prodigysim or someone with a hittable the beginning of the map of death toll 4, only to have their bonus be deducted by 100-200 out of 1600 or whatever the max bonus is for that map.

The entire bonus gets scaled down whenever someone dies. 1 person dies, 25% of remaining bonus is instantly cut. 2nd person dies, 33% cut. 3rd person dies, 50% cut. (incremental, cumulative you'd be down to 25% of normal bonus).

If you killed the person while they were still on perm HP, damage bonus would be untouched--but the whole result is still scaled.

Let's say you have 4 survivors at 100, and kill 1 with a car. That cuts out a quarter of the perm bonus, AND scales the total result. So you go from 100% bonus to 61% bonus.

If the same scenario happened on Promod, you'd be at 56% bonus. So, yeah, the config "cheated" you out of 5% in this scenario.

Edit: Oh, also in that map 2 or 3 of us made it to saferoom with some perm health / damage bonus, for like 100-200 bonus. Dunno where you're getting these crazy numbers from. Here's VOD: https://www.twitch.tv/impu1se_/v/58466345?t=54m
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 01:27:13 pm by ProdigySim »

hib

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2016, 02:01:27 pm »
The entire bonus gets scaled down whenever someone dies. 1 person dies, 25% of remaining bonus is instantly cut. 2nd person dies, 33% cut. 3rd person dies, 50% cut. (incremental, cumulative you'd be down to 25% of normal bonus).

If you killed the person while they were still on perm HP, damage bonus would be untouched--but the whole result is still scaled.

Let's say you have 4 survivors at 100, and kill 1 with a car. That cuts out a quarter of the perm bonus, AND scales the total result. So you go from 100% bonus to 61% bonus.

If the same scenario happened on Promod, you'd be at 56% bonus. So, yeah, the config "cheated" you out of 5% in this scenario.

Edit: Oh, also in that map 2 or 3 of us made it to saferoom with some perm health / damage bonus, for like 100-200 bonus. Dunno where you're getting these crazy numbers from. Here's VOD: https://www.twitch.tv/impu1se_/v/58466345?t=54m

May have been a lower distance map like HARD RAIN 1 when we played vs Bravo. Apologies for my error.

High Cookie

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2016, 07:56:35 am »
Nice work again Visor

Is there going to be another EQ3 release with some of these changes?,

Visor

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Re: Acemod V2
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2016, 10:34:06 am »
Is there going to be another EQ3 release with some of these changes?,
I have designed Acemod V2 in a way that makes most of its changes also affect EQ3 without directly changing anything in the latter. There are a couple exceptions though, and yeah I can release a EQ3.0d if there's demand.
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

 

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