Author Topic: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching  (Read 5794 times)

Rails

  • *
  • Posts: 430
  • Head Producer of Deadstops.
    • View Profile
General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« on: November 25, 2015, 05:24:19 pm »
Hello community. First, sorry to Visor for posting this here, but since this has to do with general comments pertaining to multiple areas of this forum, I just put this here. Feel free to move it to wherever. I didn't put it in the RBT3 forum because while its the 'closing ceremony' post, it talks about a lot of stuff not related to the tournament.

Thanks all for a great tournament! I'm happy to say that it ended and that the finals were played. The turnout was great and the spectator enthusiasm was fantastic. Shoutout to my fellow admins, everyone who streamed and casted games (KissMe and Xbye especially), all server owners, everyone who donates to this community, Sir for sponsoring the prize pool, all the teams who played and everyone who had fun watching. I have a few thoughts I wanted to mention now that the tournament is over, mostly to try and make the process of competitive l4d2 a bit easier in the future (although trust me, I get it, this is more of an entertainment venture than an e-sport, I understand)

1) Can we change the "Poll of the Now" on this website to be more current/pertinent? It's still stuck on the RBT2 winning thing. The chance to make it relevant to RBT3 has passed, but its just outdated.

2) If the config on which most of NA plays its games (aka ProMod) could be fixed to where A: people don't have their guns dropped in tank fights to where matches are impacted (see: AG vs Whatevaz in the semis (twice)) and B: something is done to correct chest bumps (which foiled a tricap in the same game cuz lol) and also C: people don't get stuck on random-ass props just because they moved the wrong way (see: round 6 chopper situation in proximity vs intoxic where disco got stuck cuz #l4d2) that would be nice. The amount of matches the game/config helped decide, based less on skill and more because something stupid happened that shouldn'tve, was somewhat disturbing from an adminning point of view, especially when stuff like the gun bug and the chest bumps was claimed to be 'fixed'.

3) Granted, playing the grand finals in and of itself is an achievement since no other major NA based tournament has done that this year for a bevy of reasons, but dear lord it should not have been the 4 hour odyssey it was. Really, it wasn't the admins' fault or the teams faults' as a whole, but is there any way to prevent any one of the shitstorm of issues which occurred? This game is like 7 years old, this should be a lot easier than it is at this point to get a finals match played without 3 server crashes, a lightning-bolt kickban (more on that in a second) forcing a server change, and a bunch of other issues.

4) Is there any way to get an actual, concrete anti-cheat system? I know there's been a huge commotion recently regarding alleged (proven?) smurfing and the like, but I've honestly looked at it with ambivalence due to the fact that there seems to be a trend of people playing who either have hacked/might be hacking, that gray area there's always been. I think a huge reason l4d2 shouldn't be taken seriously is due to the fact any time any case of hacking comes out, the verdict relies on 1) demos and speccing and 2) how much people want to witch hunt. Can we not institute a way to get a definite answer to any of this, or is the excuse of "the community is so small, if you banned everyone sketchy there'd be no user base!" just going to be the answer? If it is, I don't care, I just want to know.

Again, these are just a few observations I made after adminning this tourney. I'm way past the point of making long-ass statements about how people are toxic (reason: I learned l4d2 comp is inherently toxic, some are just better at hiding it), or how this community should be held to standards of conduct seen in other communities (reason: we can't even finish half our tournaments), and I'm not interested in writing essays (reason: I don't care), I just thought these questions would be relevant because somehow, some way, someone somewhere is still going to care about this game, and someone might still until l4d3 hits or everyone walks the fuck away, which I'd bet is never going to happen.

Thoughts? Thanks once more for an outstanding tournament, I mean that; this 'bitching' from me are just a few improvements I think could be easily made/might make everyone's life a bit simpler in this dumbass game. I'm actually quite happy with how the community showed itself this tournament, there's just a lot we COULD do to be better (in my opinion, of course).
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 05:29:24 pm by Rails »
I look forward to this post being taken down so that you can continue running a corrupt system for a game that has less teams then I can count with one hand.

Kissme

  • *
  • Posts: 736
  • Caster
    • View Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2015, 05:37:15 pm »
I had a blast helping out guys, thanks to the players and teams for showing up for your matches and making the games (mostly) start on time!  You guys are the real MVP's!

Thanks to the admins as well for the offer to cast and to the viewers who tuned in.

3yebex

  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • All of the above!
    • View Profile
    • Steam Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2015, 08:29:40 pm »
There already is an anti-cheat system in place. It's called VAC, however Valve gives no craps about L4D2 other than whatever money they can bring in during the sales so nothing is every updated.

On the other hand if you want to get working anti-cheat mods in place (made by the community) you're going to have to get someone seriously dedicated to dissecting all these hacks and figuring out what they do in Left4Dead 2. We already have a few anti-cheat mods that already detect the simplest of hacks. However those mods are just blanket-wide Source Engine hacks, and if we wanted to get something specifically to detect things for L4D2 we'd have to get someone dedicated with dealing with all that. Hacks like this... just aren't detectable right now by those mods.

I also want to add... Guardian Seeker is in that video too and getting dem sweet bhops. Maybe SuprA is secretly friends with Yoshi(AKA Spectre) too?!

supra

  • ***
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 204
  • The world would be better off without you.
    • View Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2015, 09:05:38 pm »
There already is an anti-cheat system in place. It's called VAC, however Valve gives no craps about L4D2 other than whatever money they can bring in during the sales so nothing is every updated.

On the other hand if you want to get working anti-cheat mods in place (made by the community) you're going to have to get someone seriously dedicated to dissecting all these hacks and figuring out what they do in Left4Dead 2. We already have a few anti-cheat mods that already detect the simplest of hacks. However those mods are just blanket-wide Source Engine hacks, and if we wanted to get something specifically to detect things for L4D2 we'd have to get someone dedicated with dealing with all that. Hacks like this... just aren't detectable right now by those mods.

I also want to add... Guardian Seeker is in that video too and getting dem sweet bhops. Maybe SuprA is secretly friends with Yoshi(AKA Spectre) too?!


You're trolling or something, right? I don't want to believe that you're as retarded as you're putting yourself out to be. patiently waiting for some solid proof that I cheat in any way.

Pariah

  • ****
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2015, 09:09:47 pm »
There already is an anti-cheat system in place. It's called VAC, however Valve gives no craps about L4D2 other than whatever money they can bring in during the sales so nothing is every updated.

On the other hand if you want to get working anti-cheat mods in place (made by the community) you're going to have to get someone seriously dedicated to dissecting all these hacks and figuring out what they do in Left4Dead 2. We already have a few anti-cheat mods that already detect the simplest of hacks. However those mods are just blanket-wide Source Engine hacks, and if we wanted to get something specifically to detect things for L4D2 we'd have to get someone dedicated with dealing with all that. Hacks like this... just aren't detectable right now by those mods.

I also want to add... Guardian Seeker is in that video too and getting dem sweet bhops. Maybe SuprA is secretly friends with Yoshi(AKA Spectre) too?!


Why don't you just ask supra if he'll fuck you already? you're all over him and don't seem to be able to prise yourself off. You have no evidence or anything even remotely weird so why do you keep bringing it up? You have an unhealthy obsession.

People playing with an aimbot isn't a problem in this community, it's very easy to see if you know what you're looking for, I'd be highly surprised if they was a single player at a high level using an aimbot currently.

On topic : I enjoyed playing in and watching this tournament, Good job to everyone involved in the adminstration and streaming aspect, Congrats to HH.

purple

  • ***
  • Posts: 166
    • View Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2015, 10:28:07 pm »

1) Can we change the "Poll of the Now" on this website to be more current/pertinent? It's still stuck on the RBT2 winning thing. The chance to make it relevant to RBT3 has passed, but its just outdated.

2) If the config on which most of NA plays its games (aka ProMod) could be fixed to where A: people don't have their guns dropped in tank fights to where matches are impacted (see: AG vs Whatevaz in the semis (twice)) and B: something is done to correct chest bumps (which foiled a tricap in the same game cuz lol) and also C: people don't get stuck on random-ass props just because they moved the wrong way (see: round 6 chopper situation in proximity vs intoxic where disco got stuck cuz #l4d2) that would be nice. The amount of matches the game/config helped decide, based less on skill and more because something stupid happened that shouldn'tve, was somewhat disturbing from an adminning point of view, especially when stuff like the gun bug and the chest bumps was claimed to be 'fixed'.

3) Granted, playing the grand finals in and of itself is an achievement since no other major NA based tournament has done that this year for a bevy of reasons, but dear lord it should not have been the 4 hour odyssey it was. Really, it wasn't the admins' fault or the teams faults' as a whole, but is there any way to prevent any one of the shitstorm of issues which occurred? This game is like 7 years old, this should be a lot easier than it is at this point to get a finals match played without 3 server crashes, a lightning-bolt kickban (more on that in a second) forcing a server change, and a bunch of other issues.

4) Is there any way to get an actual, concrete anti-cheat system? I know there's been a huge commotion recently regarding alleged (proven?) smurfing and the like, but I've honestly looked at it with ambivalence due to the fact that there seems to be a trend of people playing who either have hacked/might be hacking, that gray area there's always been. I think a huge reason l4d2 shouldn't be taken seriously is due to the fact any time any case of hacking comes out, the verdict relies on 1) demos and speccing and 2) how much people want to witch hunt. Can we not institute a way to get a definite answer to any of this, or is the excuse of "the community is so small, if you banned everyone sketchy there'd be no user base!" just going to be the answer? If it is, I don't care, I just want to know.


Idk why I'm posting but eh, why not.

1.)  Whatevs
2.)  I think the bug is a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit serious, but I have an alternative solution to melees against tanks being an issue.  I've suggested other fixes to Zero and he passed them on to a developer who didn't understand them so they were straight up turned down.  Easy fix imo is remove the melee swap thing and just reduce the damage melees do to the tank.  The damage is still ridiculous (if you played back when it was 600 it was even more of a joke).  No real comment on charger chest-bumps as it seems hard to fix apparently (I'm not really a coding guy so idk if it's something that can actually be fixed or jacob is just bad :).
3.)  Seemed like only the EU server was truly an issue, the NA issue was just admin/player related, so maybe find someone who has non-crap EU servers.
4.)  Not really sure what is capable code-wise but I'm leaning towards not really.  A good cheater is not going to get caught.  Even those who are suspicious can't really be proven (Nate anyone) as people will always defend them.  After talking to other people it seems the only way to stop bhop and jump rock "scripts" is to just block them entirely.  Aimbots, no spread, and ESP related things are a little bit harder.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 10:30:18 pm by purple »

Breezy

  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2015, 03:17:46 am »
In regards to the most important part of L4D2, spectating, I have a suggestion for KissMe. Thank you sincerely for all your dedication towards casting, but as Lead Spectator I would like it if you stayed zoomed out at birds eye view angles so we could see the positioning of survivors and ghost SI.

First person is cool every now and then to see some zombies being shot, or when tank is coordinating with its support to land a rock or when a hunter is going for a high damage pounce. But most of the time there are things happening I want to see that are not in the POV of the spectated survivor. Using a birds eye view might also help teams who want to go back and study the VOD and analyse their positioning.

Battle

  • *
  • Posts: 223
    • View Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2015, 03:34:07 am »
In regards to the most important part of L4D2, spectating, I have a suggestion for KissMe. Thank you sincerely for all your dedication towards casting, but as Lead Spectator I would like it if you stayed zoomed out at birds eye view angles so we could see the positioning of survivors and ghost SI.

First person is cool every now and then to see some zombies being shot, or when tank is coordinating with its support to land a rock or when a hunter is going for a high damage pounce. But most of the time there are things happening I want to see that are not in the POV of the spectated survivor. Using a birds eye view might also help teams who want to go back and study the VOD and analyse their positioning.

Thats generally why theres multiple casters, to catch what the camera can sometimes miss..but then of course you run into the situation whereby the camera angle is switched as above and people like to say "whys he casting that I CAN SEE THATS HAPPENING". I would imagine any team that was reviewing performances would use clientside recording over watching the playback of a vod, purely to catch individual errors more easily
I have an accent, so i can say what i want

Ramirez™

  • ***
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 04:13:06 am »
I also have a suggestion for KissMe, as far as casting goes i heard rogaine actually helps when it comes to hair loss. KAPPA

Kissme

  • *
  • Posts: 736
  • Caster
    • View Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2015, 07:59:00 am »
In regards to the most important part of L4D2, spectating, I have a suggestion for KissMe. Thank you sincerely for all your dedication towards casting, but as Lead Spectator I would like it if you stayed zoomed out at birds eye view angles so we could see the positioning of survivors and ghost SI.

First person is cool every now and then to see some zombies being shot, or when tank is coordinating with its support to land a rock or when a hunter is going for a high damage pounce. But most of the time there are things happening I want to see that are not in the POV of the spectated survivor. Using a birds eye view might also help teams who want to go back and study the VOD and analyse their positioning.

Thank you for the suggestion.  The main time that I 1st person though is only for tanks, I received many comments awhile back from people asking me to stay 1st person'ed on it.  The only other time I first person is when I have to respond to an admin or a mod of my chat.  I do that so the viewers can still watch while I answer the person who needs me to answer. 

Are there any specific times you'd like me to 1st person the survivors/tank?  Or are you saying you'd be happier with 100% 3rd? Or do you mean you'd like me to zoom out more than usual as to capture where all the SI are in ghost, which is a bit hard to do because SI normally don't come from only one direction unfortunately.  Sorry for the questions, just want to make sure I understand your suggestion :)

@Ram, I'm streaming later just to show you my beautiful hair.

Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2015, 08:03:00 am »
There already is an anti-cheat system in place. It's called VAC, however Valve gives no craps about L4D2 other than whatever money they can bring in during the sales so nothing is every updated.


I'd like to point out that there is at least one person with a VAC ban on the video game of L4D2 who currently participates in tournaments whenever possible for them, but they get around this with alternate accounts which seems to ruin the competitive integrity of a game that does not have a lot going for it in the first place, perhaps matters like these should be accounted for and preventative measures be put in place to stop people with VAC bans from smurfing their way in.

Breezy

  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2015, 08:47:33 am »
I didn't consider that sometimes you have chat to respond to, and so have to leave the camera in first person. Perhaps it is too much at times to ask to see all the SI ghosts, although that is my personal preference when I am spectating games. A compromising rule that I suspect you already follow would be to keep all four survivors in the frame at all times (unless in first person).

Rails

  • *
  • Posts: 430
  • Head Producer of Deadstops.
    • View Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2015, 09:11:34 am »

2.)  I think the bug is a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit serious, but I have an alternative solution to melees against tanks being an issue.  I've suggested other fixes to Zero and he passed them on to a developer who didn't understand them so they were straight up turned down.  Easy fix imo is remove the melee swap thing and just reduce the damage melees do to the tank.  The damage is still ridiculous (if you played back when it was 600 it was even more of a joke).  No real comment on charger chest-bumps as it seems hard to fix apparently (I'm not really a coding guy so idk if it's something that can actually be fixed or jacob is just bad :).

That's a perfect idea, because lowering the damage would circumvent a lot of problems, such as survivors getting desperate and just hacking the tank to bits (even the best tanks have trouble against 3/4 melee weapons, at least in my experience watching) and it would stop the implementation of needlessly complicating plugins, such as the 'switch to gun instead of melee' after (I thought) the issue of survs getting hits in as they're being punched was already fixed -- waiting on Jacob or NF to read/respond to this thread, cuz Purple's suggestion makes total sense to me, also for them to comment in regards to chest bumps.

4.)  Not really sure what is capable code-wise but I'm leaning towards not really.  A good cheater is not going to get caught.  Even those who are suspicious can't really be proven (Nate anyone) as people will always defend them.  After talking to other people it seems the only way to stop bhop and jump rock "scripts" is to just block them entirely.  Aimbots, no spread, and ESP related things are a little bit harder.

Wasn't there a program (I think it was called UAC a while back) that did at least a good amount of work keeping players honest, but then its l4d2 support fell apart for some reason? This was just before I came into the 'competitive community' so I'm not too educated on the subject, but that sounded like a good idea back in like 2013, I think it was? It'd be a lot harder to defend someone effectively if a third party had hardcore evidence that they're being dishonest.

I'd like to point out that there is at least one person with a VAC ban on the video game of L4D2 who currently participates in tournaments whenever possible for them, but they get around this with alternate accounts which seems to ruin the competitive integrity of a game that does not have a lot going for it in the first place, perhaps matters like these should be accounted for and preventative measures be put in place to stop people with VAC bans from smurfing their way in.

There are at least a couple players with Vac bans outside of l4d2 who play this game who I'm friends with, the two that spring to mind being ProdigySim (whose ban is a community joke due to the fact its like over 3000 days old) and D_st. Who are you referencing? I'm only asking to name names because that'd be important to know if someone who got VAC'd is smurfing their way around; if you don't want to say here tell me on steam, ALTHOUGH if you want to attempt to condemn someone on here for dishonest behavior, this site always needs more pageviews, so feel free to do as you wish. If we barred everyone who has a VAC ban of any kind of any account from playing comp l4d2 it'd be a nasty result for the playbase.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 09:17:44 am by Rails »
I look forward to this post being taken down so that you can continue running a corrupt system for a game that has less teams then I can count with one hand.

Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2015, 10:01:38 am »
There are at least a couple players with Vac bans outside of l4d2 who play this game who I'm friends with, the two that spring to mind being ProdigySim (whose ban is a community joke due to the fact its like over 3000 days old) and D_st. Who are you referencing? I'm only asking to name names because that'd be important to know if someone who got VAC'd is smurfing their way around; if you don't want to say here tell me on steam, ALTHOUGH if you want to attempt to condemn someone on here for dishonest behavior, this site always needs more pageviews, so feel free to do as you wish. If we barred everyone who has a VAC ban of any kind of any account from playing comp l4d2 it'd be a nasty result for the playbase.

I think you misunderstood, I only meant that players with VAC bans in the game of L4D2 should be excluded from competitive play, not VAC bans of any kind.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 11:45:52 am by Visor »

3yebex

  • *****
  • Posts: 1285
  • All of the above!
    • View Profile
    • Steam Profile
Re: General RBT Closing Ceremony/Bitching
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2015, 11:21:05 am »
In regards to the most important part of L4D2, spectating, I have a suggestion for KissMe. Thank you sincerely for all your dedication towards casting, but as Lead Spectator I would like it if you stayed zoomed out at birds eye view angles so we could see the positioning of survivors and ghost SI.

First person is cool every now and then to see some zombies being shot, or when tank is coordinating with its support to land a rock or when a hunter is going for a high damage pounce. But most of the time there are things happening I want to see that are not in the POV of the spectated survivor. Using a birds eye view might also help teams who want to go back and study the VOD and analyse their positioning.
Thats generally why theres multiple casters, to catch what the camera can sometimes miss..but then of course you run into the situation whereby the camera angle is switched as above and people like to say "whys he casting that I CAN SEE THATS HAPPENING". I would imagine any team that was reviewing performances would use clientside recording over watching the playback of a vod, purely to catch individual errors more easily
I too never understood why he did it. I would occasionally get a few people that came in and asked me to do so but I refused since it's stupid. When they tell me their reasons for having it I'd end up scratching my head. Why the hell would they want to see where the Tank is looking while playing is beyond me when they can see the Tank, SI, and Survivors in a single angle. There are demos and players streaming for that so don't put it on the caster, we can't do everything so just do what's best.

 

A dedicated community website to competitive L4D and L4D2, ran by the community, for the community. L4DNation supports all continents of play and focuses on bringing together the community as a whole to a central hub of information.