Author Topic: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom  (Read 9037 times)

ProdigySim

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As many of you are probably aware, saferoom tank fights are kind of a deadlocked situation that can be frustrating for both teams to deal with. Neither team is really incentivized to make a move in those scenarios--leading to a standoff between the two teams.

I've come up with a plugin that can allow the tank to lose rage per usual rules while survivors are in the saferoom. It's up for consideration for future promod releases.

However, there's a bit of a question of what maps this needs to be applied to. I don't think it's necessary for every saferoom, but there are some tank fights that naturally end up at the saferoom out of necessity.

Some good candidates we're looking at include:
1. Dead center 1
2. Hard Rain 2
3. No Mercy 1
4. No Mercy 5

Anyone have any opinions on enabling saferoom tank frustration loss on these? Or have some other maps to suggest?

dping

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2014, 02:04:26 pm »
I'm assuming there will be an announcement like the with the modified slowdown in water message....


Below is a list of maps that I believe could be at least looked at for this or other alternative fixes (i.e. tank bans, MOAR Melees!, exc).


Early tanks on, Blood Harvest 3 maybe? This isn't often held in the saferoom but most of the time, someone is close enough to the saferoom to spawn-block when hits are up

Early tanks on Death Toll 1 is a coin-flip since its a Rox-for-Dayz tank spot with almost unlimited LOS no matter where you are unless you push under the bridge, given the car isn't close by.  I don't think I've ever seen a tank go AI on this map (besides L2L).
Ideally, along with your plugin, it would be great to have somewhere in the saferoom to LoS this tank. and fight the unlimited sight from the wooded area.

Early tanks on Swamp Fever 3 has a rather difficult tank only because of the multiple spawn points (trees and rooms) and the hittable car near by. Ideally, pushing past the first area is best, but hardly possible or taking the tank between the porches or in a room; again, its a coin-toss.


Question: on Sacrifice 1 and 2 and Passing 2, do they have an early tank bans?  Its kind of moot since no one plays them anyway, but i figured I'd bring them up :)  I'd think it would be neat to see how they played out with either this plugin or removal of bans (if any).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 02:06:30 pm by dping »
dPing

Artifacial

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 02:52:25 pm »
You're alluding to a stalemate, and yet you're rewarding survivors and not SI for camping saferoom. I understand its conditional depending on the map, but for instance, Dark Carnival 4, survivors have absolutely no incentive to leave SR (especially if tank has hit hittables around the SR area), and tank no incentive to go in, and yet it's unfair to force the tank to commit (in my opinion) and reward that survivor play. Thoughts on how to combat that sort of play? (i.e. preventing survivors from running back to SR).

dping

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 03:08:21 pm »
Thoughts on how to combat that sort of play? (i.e. preventing survivors from running back to SR).

Melees and/or D-eagles outside of saferoom (i.e. Maproom DC1), places to LoS, and easily spawn blocked, and lack of hittables and recently the use of propane down a choke, are all adequate reasons to leave a saferoom.

Strats like letting the tank go AI after failed commit isn't possible if the saferoom is held since unlimited LoS. 

If implemented with this plugin, the reason to leave would be the tank is going AI and a 3cap boomer will be on their way with a situation, just like all other tanks are done; send it AI and get another attack.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 03:10:01 pm by dping »
dPing

Bravo

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 03:53:32 pm »
You're alluding to a stalemate, and yet you're rewarding survivors and not SI for camping saferoom. I understand its conditional depending on the map, but for instance, Dark Carnival 4, survivors have absolutely no incentive to leave SR (especially if tank has hit hittables around the SR area), and tank no incentive to go in, and yet it's unfair to force the tank to commit (in my opinion) and reward that survivor play. Thoughts on how to combat that sort of play? (i.e. preventing survivors from running back to SR).

which is why that map is probably not on his list?  And the maps that are in the advantage of the tank are? Id love to commit my tanks in any of the saferooms on his list, but dk map 4, probably not.

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 03:57:47 pm »
death toll 2
blood harvest 2
swamp fever 3

i think those 3 would benefit from this plugin

3yebex

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 04:58:56 pm »
As long as when tank is given, it is announced in chat (to all players) if there is permanent saferoom frustration or not.

I feel like Dark Carnival 4 should have permanent frustration. That saferoom is a real pain in the ass to maneuver as the tank and makes 3 of the SI's jobs (Jockey/Charger/Boomer) more difficult/impossible.

Տէսռէ

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2014, 05:47:09 pm »
I shouldn't post silly things.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 07:43:31 pm by Տէսռէ »
"People will question all the good things they hear about you but believe all the bad without a second thought." - Anonymous

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2014, 05:52:55 pm »
What about instead of rewarding distance/health points for making safe room, if they push past tank to saferoom, they don't get the distance bonus from tank spawn. I feel that this would be the catch-22 that we might be looking for regarding rewarding survivors and some incentive to actually fight the tank.

Unrelated to the topic. Re-read the post.  :P

Pariah

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 08:36:19 pm »
I'm not sure if this is really necessary, I think the bigger problem with the tanks that you mention, Hard Rain 2/Dead Center 1 is that they're just too early. Changing the rage situation will hardly change anything in terms of gameplay except perhaps making the Si have to commit with a less than favourable lineup. You say yourself that the survivors fight them in the saferoom out of necessity, so what's the actual purpose of making the tank lose rage, to force an early commit? From what I've seen people don't bother to be retarded about it anyway, You don't see the infected throwing in hit after hit due to the survivors not having anywhere better to go. However even if they were to do this, the tank can't effectively prevent a push, or the survivor team standing just outside the saferoom in order to make the tank lose rage regardless.

Why is it that the tank is punished when the survivors aren't making progress, You say there's no incentive for either team to do anything; I'd disagree, the survivors eventually have to move, if the infected keep attacking then they'll eventually die. The survivors have to either: 1. stand just outside safe in order to make the tank lose when the infected spawns are down. 2. Push forwards.


« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 08:42:34 pm by Pariah »

K3pooch

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2014, 09:47:16 pm »
I think this is an awesome idea and some people are slightly missing the point.

Only certain specific saferooms would be given this new plugin. Of course you don't want to reward survivors for fighting tanks in the c2m4 saferoom. It's saferooms in which the survivors MAY have no choice except fight the tank there and should not be punished by having an endless flow of hits thrown at them while the tank sits at full rage waiting for them to get fed up and push out to their impending doom. Back on Xbox, fighting tanks in any saferoom was banned as without any plugins to balance some of the saferooms, people would take advantage of the tank not losing rage and just never commit.

This plugin would certainly promote the usage of some saferooms as balanced tank fighting spots. Obviously there are some saferooms where survivors have a huge advantage, and some where it's pretty much a guaranteed wipe so the survivors will push to a different spot regardless like c2m5. The plugin would be either pointless or extremely biased for survivors on those maps. This would only be used for the saferooms that give both sides an equal chance. It would make these fights not a huge inconvenience for survivors and make it just like any other spot to fight tank. People who say that this only benefits the survivors, well, yes, it does. But as it is, even though most teams won't be scumbaggy enough to do never commit tank on a saferoom, the few that do have an unbalanced advantage. Same goes for survivors who fight tank in a saferoom where it is totally not necessary like c2m4 and teams should not be rewarded for it. There is an occasional unbalance as it stands. All the plugin would do is make fighting tanks in saferooms where it is 100% necessary not a death sentence for survivors.

With endless pauses and ready-ups, the game is long enough already. We don't need hyper-long Mexican standoffs in saferooms to test which team is more patient when the place they're fighting could offer a relatively balanced spot in the first place.

I'm all for it. I'm actually a little surprised this has been a conflict for so long. People, just be confident in your skills that you can wipe with a tank. Don't be a bitch.

fig newtons

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2014, 11:50:07 pm »
Death toll 2

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2014, 12:57:33 am »
The only problem with this plugin is that it needs to be intuitive somehow. I agree that maps like DK4 saferoom can lead to long, boring stalemates. It's eventually in the SI's favor, since you can infinitely attack, but it's just boring to deal with and unenjoyable for everyone.

If the change is made, there has to be a way to know without reading promod changelogs. Wouldn't want some poor team to push out of saferoom into a Tank when they don't have to and get wiped because they don't check l4dnation regularly.

I really dislike chat print spam, but perhaps that's the only way to let people know that Tank is losing rage.

As an alternative solution, I could (don't kill me here) add props to make taking a Tank in saferoom never a good option, and essentially force Survivors to push out. For example, on Dark Carn 4, you could place a fence or something to block the back half of the saferoom, leaving only a small area that wouldn't be that ideal for fighting a Tank in. Here's a quick mockup:

http://i.imgur.com/tzRsR14.png

This solution would be completely intuitive (no re-learning of mechanics necessary) but also more restrictive. Just an idea.

3yebex

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2014, 02:49:14 am »
The only problem with this plugin is that it needs to be intuitive somehow. I agree that maps like DK4 saferoom can lead to long, boring stalemates. It's eventually in the SI's favor, since you can infinitely attack, but it's just boring to deal with and unenjoyable for everyone.

If the change is made, there has to be a way to know without reading promod changelogs. Wouldn't want some poor team to push out of saferoom into a Tank when they don't have to and get wiped because they don't check l4dnation regularly.

I really dislike chat print spam, but perhaps that's the only way to let people know that Tank is losing rage.

As an alternative solution, I could (don't kill me here) add props to make taking a Tank in saferoom never a good option, and essentially force Survivors to push out. For example, on Dark Carn 4, you could place a fence or something to block the back half of the saferoom, leaving only a small area that wouldn't be that ideal for fighting a Tank in. Here's a quick mockup:

http://i.imgur.com/tzRsR14.png

This solution would be completely intuitive (no re-learning of mechanics necessary) but also more restrictive. Just an idea.


I actually REALLY like this idea. Saferooms that are too one-sided could be modified to add an equal opportunity for either side to come out ahead (Just make sure the props added in feel like they belong there, for aesthetics sake). Saferooms like Dk4 which are incredibly survivor sided could have part of it blocked off, and saferooms like NM5 could have the sandbag prop/floodlight/throwables table removed.

ProdigySim

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Re: Making the tank lose frustration while survivors are in saferoom
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2014, 03:56:02 am »
As an alternative solution, I could (don't kill me here) add props to make taking a Tank in saferoom never a good option, and essentially force Survivors to push out.

That's certainly a viable solution as well, but I think there are some maps where the saferoom tank fight will still be a rewarding experience--so it would be worth trying to help by leaving it in rather than banning it imo.

For example, Blood Harvest 2 and Death Toll 2 have always been iconic saferoom tank fights. Nerfing them just to fix the slow LoS game problem doesn't seem like the appropriate fix.

Each map sort of needs its own consideration for saferoom tank fights I think. Since this option just became available, it's being explored.

 

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