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Messages - Dragon

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Streaming & Casting / Re: On The Couch - Podcast Series
« on: November 20, 2014, 02:05:23 pm »
We will reschedule for another time soon. Oni wasn't feeling well and Battle had a previous arrangement which ended up starting the same time of the podcast last Sunday. It's unlikely that it will be this weekend though, but maybe the one after. We shall see.

Streaming & Casting / Re: On The Couch - Podcast Series
« on: November 15, 2014, 08:55:27 pm »
EDIT: Today's scheduled podcast has been delayed until further notice due to Battle having a previous arrangement, Oni feeling under the weather. We will announce when the podcast is rescheduled for.

Streaming & Casting / Re: On The Couch - Podcast Series
« on: October 19, 2014, 04:08:41 pm »
We're about to start the stream, Killatoy will be hosting so tune into his stream right now:

Streaming & Casting / Re: On The Couch - Podcast Series
« on: October 19, 2014, 03:45:11 pm »
Our broadcaster Joe had to set back the broadcast, so we're hoping to go live at 6 pm EST. I will post an update if anything changes between now and then. Apologies for the delay.

Streaming & Casting / Re: On The Couch - Podcast Series
« on: October 19, 2014, 01:08:50 pm »
The debut podcast of On The Couch will be broadcasting live today at 4 pm EST (just under 2 hours from now). Our honorary special guest for the very first broadcast will be Killatoy and your hosts will be Battle, Oni and myself. Joe will of course provide the stream so stay tuned and be ready at 4 pm EST to watch it here:

General / Re: borderlands
« on: October 18, 2014, 06:04:51 am »
Assuming my gfx card is working fine now and I don't get any more bluescreen issues then I'm game. I'm running Claptrap as my main character, I'd be down for any adventures with fellow L4D folk and I'm mostly familiar with knowing which gear, manufacturer specifics and character skills are good, bad, might look good on paper but are awful in reality, no-brainers, etc.

General / Re: Free MONIES taking shitty surveys!
« on: October 15, 2014, 06:13:49 pm »
I know someone irl who signed up to a load of survey sites just to test them out. He must have tried out about 5 or 6 of them, all of which made claims that they would pay for each survey done, yet he did not receive a single penny from either of them.

The problem with groups that make great claims about offering these methods such as payments for partaking in surveys or even internet/affiliate marketing, is that it becomes increasingly ineffective when more and more people attempt to do it, on top of which that the people who are trying to 'sell' these methods, are primarily doing it for themselves and to make their own profits (and to make more money from you and others than you ever would with the system you've paid to learn how to duplicate).

Something that I've started doing in the past couple of days actually, is doing some research and learning how to tackle the stock market. This btw is nothing to with forex or any 'trading systems' which are worthless most of the time. Of course, there can be huge risks if you are not entirely sure about what you're doing when working the stock market, but as far as potentially earning a lot of cash for minimal effort goes, it trumps the likes of internet/affiliate marketing, trading systems and surveys by miles.

Streaming & Casting / Re: On The Couch - Podcast Series
« on: October 14, 2014, 06:43:21 am »
I like this. I actually have some good input I could give on some of the psychological aspects of L4D. Hit me up if you would like me as a guest/contributor.

Absolutely, you can be our special guest for the very first podcast :)

Streaming & Casting / On The Couch - Podcast Series
« on: October 13, 2014, 08:59:38 am »
Battle, Oni and I will be hosting a new podcast series with Joe as our resident streamer. It is named after a steam group I started with a former team-mate almost 4 years ago, and the series will focus on delving deep into the psychology that courses through L4D2 and the competitive community. We thought it would be an interesting thing to do because psychology plays a huge part in the competitive community and also how players and teams perform, yet not many people are fully aware of the scale of its impact and while e-sports psychology might be something that is mentioned for more popular competitive games, there's almost no official documentation on the subject that can be directly applied to L4D. We intend to shed light on the topic and have got plenty of content to impart as the series continues onward.

We cannot say for certain exactly when the podcasts will take place as it will depend on whenever the four of us are free at the same time as each other, but they will be announced here when they are scheduled to take place. The nature of the podcasts will be about discussing certain topics within the psychology of L4D, interviews with guests, and we've even talked about the possibility of having a few 'talk show-style' episodes where there are two guests/parties discussing/debating whatever it is they either support/contradict each other on, as long as it's something that highlights the psychology at work in L4D. Sometimes we will have guests and other times we will not, that will depend a lot on who volunteers or who would be a suitable guest to discuss the chosen topic as we build up to it. For those that aren't sure about what we'll be talking about, it will be things like how psychological state can impact a player's performance, discussing positive elements such as a harmonial team atmosphere, strong leadership and good rapport among the team, as well as negative elements such as disharmony, raging and complacency being just a few of many examples of both sides of the spectrum.

Stay tuned for more information.

Left 4 Dead 2 / Re: Decline of the EU community
« on: September 23, 2014, 07:35:23 pm »
1. Several cups happened after the Fragpipe. All actually went quite well, so your point is kind of void since Fragpipe offered 10k in prizes, even teams of pub players were made in order to participate cuz hype.

Plenty of cups happened after fragpipe and went well, but I was alluding more to the size of the EU community gradually decreasing as time went on. The only reason in the past 18 months that the number of teams entering cups seemed to spike again is because the segregation between EU and NA (and partially also the Asian and Australasian) communities was starting to give way, hence the rise in international competitions. But the EU scene itself has still been shrinking in terms of competing activity.

2.  I blame the division in the community and the constant ego driven groups that whored the whole scene with cups taylor-made for friends. This whole server perfomance given importance is pathetic. Players want a good atmosphere and that is it.

Did anyone cared about perfomance during the Fragpipe ? l4d2tv servers were used, so yeah..

Which groups in particular? The cups can be however the hosts want it to be, they're the ones making them and they have to do the work to keep it running so whatever they plan is completely up to them, regardless of whether they are "taylor-made for friends" or however else people perceive them to be. It's incredibly easy to sit on the outside and judge admins on how they organise their competitions, but you can never gain a true and complete understanding of it until you've taken on that responsibility for yourself. I value a good atmosphere too, but quite a lot of people I've spoken to in the past about the subject have talked about their experiences with server quality and they tend to describe it as either a positive or frustrating experience. It's to be expected that players will flock to servers with a quality that gives them more positive experiences than frustrating ones.

The fragpipe was mid 2011 - before even pwg came to prominence, let alone anywhere near today's server optimisation and higher tickrates. L4D2TV servers back then were as good as it could get in EU, especially as they were working closely together with the fragpipe admins during the tournament. So whether people cared about server quality or not didn't even fit into the equation back then.

3. Who is thrill ?  ???

Really ----> who is he ?

For someone who is a member of the EU community, it's surprising that you don't know who Thrill is. He runs the L4D2 Shoot 2 Thrill steam group and has hosted at least 4 cups in the past several months. He has also partaken in some shoutcasts for official cup matches. Surely you've heard of him if you keep yourself up to date with recent EU cup activity: he's the guy who is high 24/7 and has an infectious laugh:

Btw, if you don't mind me asking, what's your usual alias in the EU community? Because you are not OhYeah the Estonian who founded Router Pixies that's for sure XD

I like to think that l4d 2 is a cannibal community. It eats itself from the inside, like a cancer. There was a point when you had two groups, Pwg and Sirpls, all the comparative advertisement that was made from one of them kind of started a war. The cool kids and frag whores moved to Sir, leaving Pwg to die slowly and painfully.

This was around the time of CCT. There is no need to say where the main EU admins were involved at the time, totally ostracizing the EU community. Why I ask ? I know the answer, because the small and ridiculous «fame» that they could extract from it was enough to fuel their e-ego. Why have the trouble of keeping the EU community running when the American scene had much more ego growth potential ?

I've been saying for years that the community is its own worst nightmare because it can often be fond of unwittingly shitting where it eats. As for what happened between pwg and SirPlease, nikeon once told me about what happened, but I am sure Sir can explain that better than anyone else here. While I can't speak for EU admins at that time and what their intentions really were, I will say that focusing on one scene more (or any other action) for the purpose of boosting one's "fame" in the community or anything of the like is completely asinine for anyone who tries to do that. There are various reasons why people go and experience a community outside of their own borders, including admins. Only a fool would go to experience another scene to primarily boost their ego.

Teams ending is normal. What is not normal is the fact that the same players over and over again stayed together and roflstomped new teams (Pub stomp mentality, easy wins is what they want). You say teams quite because of boredom ? I say new teams aren't formed because of boredom because they play against the same dudes that have been here from the start.

And those "same dudes" have been beaten several times in the past by other teams: they can be beaten again but it's the responsibility of aspiring players and teams to work out where they're lacking and keep on trying until they can match and surpass those teams, otherwise history will continuously repeat itself over and over again. And what you said about the same players sticking around for ages to stomp new teams, this is exactly why I stopped playing regularly a few years ago and focused more on admin duties as well as being a mentor: I knew the level of competition was not going to be the same after that period and there was little point in joining with other experienced remnants of other teams who departed, but I didn't want to quit the game or the community either, so I channeled my focus elsewhere.

Lack of fair and equal competition dude. Imagine having to play vs Real Madrid or Bayern München over and over again, every single day. This kills everyone motivation.

Welcome to my world of over 4 years ago when I started out, except with a big difference: when I was developing as a player, I was in a team competing with at least 5 others on a similar level that I can recall and that competition meant that we were all driving each other to go further and further just to make sure we didn't fall behind, as well as keeping up with the top brass of the time. As for playing "vs Real Madrid or Bayern München over and over again" well that's the same for everyone else who is trying to catch up to the benchmarks. It's not anyone's job to complain that such teams are always there and have been together for ages, it's on the chasing players/teams to catch them up and outperform them. And it's not impossible either, they just need to know how to do it all properly, get their team on the same wavelength and go for it.

Developing a defeatist attitude when playing and losing to better teams can easily kill motivation for some, that I don't deny. But no player or team is going to make real improvements unless they build up that resistance against the Real Madrids and Bayern Münchens of the game, and that's the whole point of why the boredom sets in and leads to an exodus at the top: those types of teams felt alone at the top and were no longer getting enjoyment from the game because people took far too long to improve and reach their level (in most cases they never did). Why expect anyone to stick around with no obligation for something that is no longer fun or motivating to them?

I can see you don't play this game much. Sir please group chat  at this moment incorporates 20 different players. The question here is simple..

Why aren't these players making teams ? I beg to differ Dragon, the players are here what lacks is atmosphere and a FAIR/balanced competitive ground.

Perhaps because they don't feel like making teams? After all, they're not under any obligation to form teams no matter how hard anyone wishes that they would. So there are 20 players in SirPlease group chat, do all 20 of them want to form teams? Do they all want to enter competitions? Some people in the community aren't interested in trying to compete or form teams, they would rather just play mixes/pugs. And I know the feeling: I too would like to see more teams, who doesn't? But what can be done, force those players to make teams against their will? You don't have to play the game a lot to realise that.

Note to forum admins: I'd recommend moving these last few posts elsewhere so as not to further derail the thread. (ninja'd by Battle I see).

Left 4 Dead 2 / Re: Decline of the EU community
« on: September 23, 2014, 02:26:22 pm »
EURO scene is a pug/mix fest. There are like 2 very strong teams (pidgeons) and the rest is bread.

The constant same players/different team name over the years created the fall of EU competitive scene. Lets not forget about the lack of EU cups in order to stimulate the community. EU leaders focused too much on the American scene and forgot about EU... :(

There are players but the lack of incentive and events for them to gather are nowhere to be found. EU needs people with time and patience to organize new cups if not.. this is clearly the end.

It feels like the EU community is back to basics. A cup for new teams ONLY should be created.

The EU scene has always been dwindling and on the decline, I don't think there has been an upwards surge in players and teams since the announcement of the fragpipe back in late 2010 and it was only a matter of time before it reached the incredibly morbid state it's in now. A few committed people did what they could, Thrill being one example of someone outside the usual spectrum of admins and figureheads who stepped up to host a collection of tournaments. While cups certainly keep the teams and the crowd entertained for a couple of months, once it's finished then it's back to square one again, so it's not a long-term solution to the root causes of the community's decline.

I'm curious to know why you think that "EU leaders focused too much on the American scene and forgot about EU..." because I struggle to think of one admin who has done that to the detriment of the EU scene. It would also help if you elaborated in what way exactly you think EU leaders focused too much on the NA scene.

Team after team quit because of boredom and lack of real competition, in large part due to the slow development of the scene (something also mentioned by teams and players of the first generations who quit). It started with Stofftiere, Tanksmiths and qn in the very beginning who all quit before L4D2 was 4-6 months old (also because some players were divided between the two games and some of them went back to L4D1), then Pixies, then Impossibru, then the remnants of teams such as Bandits, Dildo Brotherz, etc. By the time these teams were playing their last cup games, they were ready to close the door on the way out in terms of activity. This also decreases incentive to play in the sense that with teams coming and going at that rate, overall playing standards diminish over time. So there's been a long, long history of teams and players quitting en masse from the EU scene. Lack of cups is just a small reason why the community population is lower than ever.

As for making tournaments for new teams only, we had that in the form of CGFB cups. The first one was hosted in 2011 and had 24 teams. The 2nd cup was in the middle of 2012 and had 16 teams. The 3rd and final CGFB cup in late 2012 barely managed to scrape together 8 teams. It was a struggle at that point to get 8 new teams and this was going back 2 years ago. There's barely any fresh blood at all, let alone enough of it to justify making a cup at least in the EU scene. The ship for growth has long since sailed away.

My point was just that i dont get the need for 2 configs within the same game, because of the fact it creates a divide but i really dont care to much. Just reading through this alot of pointless debates about HB arose which ...idk are worthless lol you like Hybrid, i dont mind it as i said before but changing promod to hybrid would piss off more people in the NA scene than would be worth it...its not EU and until we can meet in the middle to form one config we shall leave it at that eh? :D

One of the main reasons EQ was made was primarily because the European scene was in decline in terms of activity; some players and teams had quit by the time the fragpipe tournament was drawing to a close and a few others already had one foot in the door ready to make their exits too. The following tournaments (that being the 1st CGFB cup geared towards newer and lesser-experienced players, and one cup hosted by a Ukrainian admin which was more focused on the Russian community, even though some EU teams gave it a go) happened after the fragpipe, but even those two combined were not enough to maintain enough long-term interest.

To coincide with the timing, the Deathwish project had come to an end and if my memory isn't fuzzy regarding chronological events state-side, I believe Metafogl was assuming the mantle of the main config in the NA scene. Unless there were a few test games carried out that I never heard of or witnessed, Metafogl never really planted itself in the EU scene. So we pushed out EQ, asked a few teams to try it out and it was endorsed by a few notable teams, Router Pixies and High Skill being two of them. Soon, demand for a cup started, we received donations for a prize money pool and so we went about with our business from that point onwards. We're going back to the final quarter of 2011 here and all of this plus the live opening of EQ Cup #1 took place before Pro Mod was even born, so at no point was "creating a divide" some sort of mischievous plan or intention of ours, nor was that a reality back then because our perspective was purely focused on our own turf; we simply took action in our own way to prevent our base EU scene from decaying at the time.

As for the rest, well any sort of major or minor change to a config can potentially stoke the fires within a few people who are invested heavily into it on the level of personal preference; that's part and parcel of config development and there's simply no avoiding it, for reasons I already explained in the Compfogl thread: players in general have varying degrees of how they personally visualise their ideal L4D2 config, making it impossible for anyone to cater to all tastes. It's not just different features but also different philosophies as to why there is more than one config in running and although that in itself does cause a slight divide in preference, it hasn't really been detrimental to the community in terms of activity.

If anything, it has improved the lines of communication between both sides of the Atlantic which in turn has at least partially lessened the segregation and lack of awareness and knowledge gradually since the older days. Case in point, Prodigy explained something to me in his last post that I had no previous knowledge of and I'm thankful to him for clarifying the matter. Btw Prodigy, I wasn't really being defensive in tone with my response, apologies if I gave off that impression. I too was simply giving my opinion and I'm a chill and mellow guy in actuality :)

But with Battle having already explained the other points and I not wanting to delve further away from the topic at hand, Visor is looking mostly for objective reasoning behind the choices made, something more concrete that extends beyond simple declarations of personal preference and denotes specific features, pros and cons, something that others can tangibly use to weigh up their own choices.

What exactly does it speak to?

To me it looks like evidence that scoring minutiae is mostly irrelevant to the game and its competitive viability as a whole.

I referenced the minutiae regarding the multipliers in HB not specifically to say whether the values are right or wrong, relevant or irrelevant, but the fact that they were randomly selected with nothing in the way of general reinforcement via testing or feedback at the time of the implementation.

In this day and age where a decent proportion of people who are proactive in these forums and share their thoughts and insight on config development at least where Pro Mod is concerned, some do debate over certain changes no matter how major or minor they appear on the surface. I wasn't aware of l4dnation and/or other sources for competitive L4D when I made my entry into the comp scene so please correct me if what I'm about to say is not the case, but it appears today that there's more of a collective awareness and scrutiny within the community when it comes to changes, whether proposed or completed, especially with there being more input in these forums from outside the NA scene than what there used to be in the past.

If an update to Pro Mod was made and released with the lead dev going out of his way to say that a particular change was decided by random and without any real testing, it would beg the palpable question in some people's minds "why implement something that's random and untested?" The only difference in this instance is that this happened years ago and it was long accepted as normality before it was brought to the attention of the public, at least for those members of the community who are recent additions around the time that the post I quoted was done. Maybe the admission of randomness was made public knowledge at the time HB began and perhaps the shifts in generations had it drift out of public awareness gradually over time.

I can't speak for CanadaRox, but working with Jahze, Battle and Visor over the years, neither one of us would make a decision based on random selection, whether it's a physical change or editing a few numerical values. There was always a basis underlying each edit. So from a developmental point of view, it just surprised me when I first learned that parts of the classic HB system were decided "with no good reason" as CanadaRox himself put it.

While I agree with you that what I cited in particular is irrelevant overall in terms of the bigger picture regarding the game itself, Prodigy, this is a poll with a detailed overview for the voters to pitch what they think is the better system and it always helps when people know exactly what they're voting for, including the minor details. Any detail about either score system, whether positive or negative, it's extra information for people who might not have had previous awareness of them, to help them make more informed decisions.

* The multipliers we use for the various values of temp health and permanent health were made up by me ~3 years ago with no good reason.  The multiple levels of temp health's worth was made as a reward for incapping players instead of having their value go up.  It can still go up if they are low enough health.  I believe the threshold is ~17 health versus 29 health in L4D1.  The reason real health is worth 3.27 times more than temp health was just because I felt they were good 3 years ago when the game was 6 months old and we still had T2s and more pills than you could carry.  I wanted temp health to be low because if you did <50 damage to a survivor that had pills and pills were worth a lot, the damage wouldn't be worth nearly as much with higher value pills.  After that I decided to add the lower temp value after incaps which hugely lowered the temp health.  There was no discussion with other players.  There was no feedback cycle.  There was no trial and error.  I came up with 3 numbers (0.1, 0.175, 0.30625) to use for temp health value multipliers and they were never discussed or played with.  They were accepted as perfect values despite the problems they now create where a charger punch can be worth 20 points on one survivor and 2 on another and gaining non-trivial amounts of points simply for passing pills.

Not to disturb the current voting trend of voting out of habit and for what people 'like' without much in the way of objectivity, but the fact that the original author of HB admitted to using random values for temp health multipliers with no real testing or feedback (yet went by unknown and unquestioned for years) pretty much speaks volumes by itself (at least to other config developers and playtesters) and merits being added to the description of Health Bonus.

Through using a very specific movement technique, you can climb off the top of ladders and immediately run at full speed without going through the 'get-off-top-of-ladder' animation. Handy for certain ladder chokes.

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