Author Topic: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament  (Read 14565 times)

sinclair

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Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« on: October 30, 2017, 11:12:51 am »
Hi, due to various circumstances the showmatch we promised you highlighting Promod Exlusive was delayed, but will be happening this weekend with signups for our upcoming event on the same config to follow shortly.

First however I want to take this chance to propery introduce [e]Freak. With Hot Mess closing, [e]Freak expanded from being a EU Mix Group to a multi region community. In addition, [e]Freak and Promod Developer Jacob have collaborated on now 2 exclusive configs to be featured in our servers.

Promod Elite(cur 1.5) is a modification of Promod 4.2.2 with gameplay focusing on survivor nerfs: weapons and slowdown and infected buffs: jumprocks re-enabled, multiple hunters and the possibility of quad caps.

Promod Exclusive will be identical to Promod Elite in every way except it will feature a new command !team designed solely for scrims / tournament play allowing Promod Elite to cater to gameplay aspects favorable to the pug community

Code: [Select]
ProMod Exlusive 1.0:
- Tank rocks now ignore god frames.
- Spectators can now see witch glows.
- Teams can now start a vote with !team to enable "Team Mode".
- In Team Mode, infected players can use !mytank during ready-up to set themselves as the tank for that round, so long as they haven't already played as the tank.
- In Team Mode, infected can change the location of their tank spawn during ready-up. They can not move the tank to a banned range. Use: '!movetank 50' will set the the tank to 50%.
- In Team Mode, tanks can not spawn before 20% or after 80%.

Luckylock

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2017, 08:06:44 pm »
In L4D2 so far, whenever a community dies, another one rises from the ashes and the scraps of what is left of the playerbase can keep on playing. Although it does seem to happen every time, there will come a time when there won't be another Deli, another Sir, another ZenDigital, etc...

That being said, we have to be grateful to the ones providing us with high quality servers for nothing in return. There's a lot of time and money that goes into maintaining L4D2 servers.

PROMOD FEEDBACK
To Jacob / Grizz / Jay: I would like to see the "normal" version of promod be exactly like the "tournament edition" except for the !mytank feature. I'm thinking tank punches and rocks should do damage to smoked survivors in both versions, for example. Thank you for bringing some of that old promod gameplay back.

Oblv

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2017, 10:08:56 pm »
No hybrid scoring and rambo ladder shooting? 'Skilled' 10/10 jump-rockers are welcome back?
Is config going to be published at github?

Fridays

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2017, 12:02:37 am »
In regards to the "favourable to pugs"

- The only thing thats going to make pugging better is making tanks not last for ten years like they always seem to do in pick up games. People just don't care enough to LOS tanks in pugs and leads to survivors not making it to saferoom most of the time and its pretty boring. Out of all the pugs I've seen on this new config, its pretty obvious nothing has changed, teams are still getting demolished and wiped due to a lack of care/skill being presented before and during the tank.

- Allowing teams to choose tank percentages means we'll have the exact same tank being played every match because there is obviously a spectrum of tanks in each campaign that have varying difficulty. People will obviously choose the most difficult one each time. Im not sure how this contributes to a more balanced meta, if anything it just makes the tank even more difficult. Also, does that mean that the teams can choose different tanks in the same round? Because if that is the case, people will choose the earliest tank 80% of the time.

- About the godframes: seems way to punishing

- Without rock-tanks, the meta would be extremely boring- But surely we have realised that map design simply does not accommodate for much balance in a lot of situations. Making rock-tanks more important is definitely a good idea however there is so many map percentages that gives the tank an extraordinary advantage even in survivor sided configs like acemod. Surely tanks should be put under more pressure when they play as rock tanks, for example increasing the time that a rock throw takes to reload. Atleast if you are going to make the tank more powerful from a long range, make the survivors LOS more effective or add more deagles. Buffing long distance tanks would mean that Home-Away matches would be even more unbalanced, not to mention players struggle to los in pugs without someone screaming over mumble. Long-range sided tank configs definitely make meta less linear (linear in terms of eq3 etc) which is certainly a good thing however if you are going to buff them in this manner it seems logical to buff the counter-balancing aspects on the survivor side too (example below)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

(Extremely basic and condensed obviously things change situationally)

 least skilled rock-tank  >--------------------------------------------------->  Most skilled rock tank
 
  - Does not land rocks                                                                      - Synchronises rocks and lands them
  - Bad at keeping sight                                                                     - Able to keep good sight and rotate succesfully
  - Takes unnecessary dmg                                                                - Takes minimal dmg
  - Loses rage quickly                                                                        - Does not lose rage/wipes

 Least skilled Survivors >----------------------------------------------------> Most skilled survivors

  - Gets hit by rocks during attacks/no attack                                      - Avoids all rocks during hits/no hits
  - Does not LOS effectively while SI is down                                       - Maximum LOS, able to rotate into most optimal spot for next hit
  - poor use of opportunities to chip/inappropriate use                          - Chips tank optimally (Forces a low hp commit or sends it AI)
  - Unaware of tank pos, poor LOS'ing                                                 - Aware of tank pos, LOS at right time, shoots unavoidable rocks: Survives

- Terrible diagram but the point is, if you make it easier to be good at rock-tank then you need to make it so that better survivors will beat worse tanks. In this config, the tank has been made easier thus the better-survivor team should be rewarded more for playing closer to the 'most skilled survivor'. A competitive config should look to reward the best possible survivors and the best possible tanks more than the worst and by making it easier for bad tanks to succeed, that balance is being thrown off. If rock tanks are to be buffed then the survivors counter-measures need to be buffed as well. This would likely come in the form of increased rage decay and decreased rage-decay onset (+longer reload for tank rocks). Plus thats not even factoring in other variables such as poor map design..


                                                                                                                                                                                                                   



I think for a 'pug' config to work you'll have to make rock tanks negligible (Make it so that rocks don't reset rage? quick games a good game). Because the levels of satisfaction that people are showing towards the current config is unchanged if not decreased in pug's- No one likes limping to safe-room after a 20% rock-tank, its just not enjoyable. On top of that I've noticed survivors can hardly make it to tank with green health because of SI damage, primarily due to spitter. I also agree about having a standardised config that is the same across different match modes, it really sets a standard of play. However on that note I have no clue how you would decrease rock tanks in pugs but still have the complex meta that tourny matches have. I would speculate that the most major issues confogl/promod/etc has is map design in regards to tanks. There is numerous tanks that are near impossible to LOS and it makes playing them in pugs not very enjoyable. It should be possible to make a config that is fun and survivable in pugs but also favour high level strategy. I enjoy this config however I think it needs a lot of balancing before it can surpass its predecessors. And it would be amazing if for once long-standing meta issues with the tank were addressed so we no longer had to put up with guaranteed wipes and near impossible LOS percentages.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 02:49:54 am by Fridays »

Jacob

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2017, 06:42:21 am »

PROMOD FEEDBACK
To Jacob / Grizz / Jay: I would like to see the "normal" version of promod be exactly like the "tournament edition" except for the !mytank feature. I'm thinking tank punches and rocks should do damage to smoked survivors in both versions, for example. Thank you for bringing some of that old promod gameplay back.

I just want to clarify because I think jay misunderstood how it's going to work: There's only 1 config, Pro Mod Elite. In that config during readyup you can use !team to start a vote which will enable the tank features. There will not be any balance changes between the 2 versions.

stuff
The changelog jay posted isn't exactly final, I'm still making some small tweaks and thinking about how to improve it.

Instead of making rocks ignore godframes I'm actually just going to remove the 0.1 second smoker godframes and leave them the same for everyone else, so tank rocks arent getting a massive buff here.

I could agree to maybe looking into some other ways to "buff" survivors vs rock tanks.

I've also been making tweaks to spit damage and godframes as I've been watching pugs trying to find a right balance.

As for people moving tanks to always be in the most OP positions I agree, I talked with a few people a bit yesterday and the solution I came up with was to limit each team to moving the tank twice per campaign. That would mean you would have to think about whether you want to use the default spawn on a map to save your "tank choice" for a later map. I think that would raise the skill cap of decision making while still requiring teams to be good at every tank.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 07:04:27 am by Jacob »

Luckylock

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2017, 12:41:23 pm »
Fridays: Survivors should struggle and yes, limp their way to the saferoom... When you say "No one likes limping to safe-room after a 20% rock-tank, its just not enjoyable." I completely disagree with you in the sense that the other alternative makes SI completely miserable to play. Not only that, but there's also less room for improving as survivors.

Survivors shutting down SI with laser-beam accurate uzi (acemod?) makes playing SI miserable, and nothing fun ever happens. The window of opportunity to multicap is so small because you can clear incredibly fast with acemod uzi. Good luck getting anything done with your attacks.

Now about jumprocks, it is no secret that this feature is incredibly easy to write a script for. I have yet to see anyone get banned for abusing jumprock scripts, so what is the verdict on that? If you host a tournament with jumprocks enabled, I guarantee you will see a few people jumprock 10 times in a row on a 100 tick server. If that isn't scripting, I don't know what is. The fundamental problem is that jumprock scripts are undedectable. Mr. Scripts could press his jumprock bind once or twice in crucial moments and nobody could notice.

For bhop, same thing applies. You can land a single bhop off a roof with the SI ghost speed and you get a sick spawn. Nobody will notice. That is also easily scriptable. SMAC only detects if you land a couple bhops in a row.

I'm not saying to not introduce back those features / bugs, but keep in mind that this issue will rise again and we can only be suspicious of people. If you have a rule in place like "no jumprock scripts" and have no way of enforcing it then that rule is useless, and so either disable jumprock entirely or allow it. Otherwise you're putting a rule with no consequences.


Fridays

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2017, 08:11:54 pm »
The easiest solution would be to add a bind that allows for over-arm jump-rocks. Similar to the plugin that added rock selections.

- If you can't enforce a 'no scripts' policy then the most logical thing to do would be to allow anyone to do it so that scripters no longer have an unfair advantage. Jump-rocks aren't exactly game changing aswell, at best they allow for better commits and easier rock-tanking.


Fridays: Survivors should struggle and yes, limp their way to the saferoom... When you say "No one likes limping to safe-room after a 20% rock-tank, its just not enjoyable." I completely disagree with you in the sense that the other alternative makes SI completely miserable to play. Not only that, but there's also less room for improving as survivors.

- I agree with that. Acemod definitely made SI dry to play. But my point was that at least in a pug situation players aren't really fussed with bleeding as soon as a round starts because of a long tank. People don't care enough to LOS in pugs and it leads to a boring 'war of attrition'. Don't give survivors lighting guns like acemod, just make it so that tanks commit for pug matches. This could just mean that rocks don't refill rage in pugs.

Survivors shutting down SI with laser-beam accurate uzi (acemod?) makes playing SI miserable, and nothing fun ever happens. The window of opportunity to multicap is so small because you can clear incredibly fast with acemod uzi. Good luck getting anything done with your attacks.

- Agreed. I think Zonemod found a pretty decent balance which I hope this config adopts.

For bhop, same thing applies. You can land a single bhop off a roof with the SI ghost speed and you get a sick spawn. Nobody will notice. That is also easily scriptable. SMAC only detects if you land a couple bhops in a row.

I'm not saying to not introduce back those features / bugs, but keep in mind that this issue will rise again and we can only be suspicious of people. If you have a rule in place like "no jumprock scripts" and have no way of enforcing it then that rule is useless, and so either disable jumprock entirely or allow it. Otherwise you're putting a rule with no consequences.

- Bhop definitely doesn't have a place in competitive. I still think the best way for enabling jump-rocks is to add a bind, while disabling the player from performing it themselves. You could even add a cooldown(8 seconds?) on the jumprock bind so that tanks cannot spam them.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 08:25:45 pm by Fridays »

Griz

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2017, 08:35:14 pm »
Hi Friday and also anyone else who reads this, I want to make this post as simple as it can be "I think therefore I am" - (Rene Descartes).

Ok so, the title (Promod: Elite) is rhetorical and should mirror to anyones mind what stem of thoughts exist behind the the title and why they are needed to be reimplemented, at least in realistic application to what competition is.
 The reason why we're bringing back promod, all the way down to its scoring system it's because we want to reimplement a system which challenges survivor teams directly, I don't even know why I have to explain this line of reason *sigh* but I guess I have to, so let's start with some reasons why and point out some flaws and also deduct the real issue which is, we're coming from 2 different lines of reasoning, I'm aiming to make this game hard and challenging by intent such being the nature of competition, (the strong rise above and challenge themselves also challenging others). You're aiming to bring equity and balance so everyone can play and make it to saferoom, which is exactly what is killing (competitive l4d2). It has been a crutch for weaker teams but stronger individual players for a while, it puts on a great outward hold W showing but that's about it - (Acemod)

1.(Health bonus)- provides a system of values in which teams can adapt and rotate to positions throughout the round provoking them to think about where they need to be and who they need to cover to win the round, bringing of course a forced unity for the outcome of the stronger and well ordered team. (counter effect)- the infected have to act and re-act as they also are being provoked to infiltrate the survivor team and attack the survivors that hold a higher value, this sets a constant draw on the infected and survivors to apply more thought rather than just throwing SI at others randomly, HB is a matter of wits more than it is about holding W, it's needed for teams to function and maintain interest, and also create a logical and self adapting structure of each and everyones team.

^ (Flaws of HB) However it could be "exploited" in times past by not having doors broken in 1 scratch, also by having deadstops on hunters and there not being quad caps. So we've worked on a couple of those flaws which should now help the SI out a bit, but terrible SI attacks have always been accompanied by just lazy minded people who couldn't understand how to be clever, so they just complained "the scoring system is broken." Then removed the needed attack/defense scoring system to define how teams are rewarded, then when the system of values of attack/defense were removed people just needed to confide in their own skills and that alone, because that's how you would win the meta of (Damage Bonus)/ (EQ/Acemod). (counter effect) well pretty much this is where things got really abstract because the SI necessity to be clever became chaotic almost entirely because there's minimal values to attack, so it became let's count down and dive into the other team, later it became blended with HB though I think.

2.Why is this CFG so hard? The entire design of the CFG (Promod:E) is to go against this idea of equity, (Acemod) - is a CFG that allows everyone to have fun and hold W throughout the map with little punishment for your mistakes, it allows players to function freely in and out around the map using buffed weapons and nerfed SI without ever feeling pressured for your failure or to succeed, it puts all individuals in control of their own dynamics and actions and teaches you to focus mostly on just yourself, I mean Acemod is the ideal CFG for chill easy going invidually skilled PUG players.

^Problem with Acemod is that it doesn't offer a challenge, it's essentially just all about chill and go with it. There's no clear direction it's practically just a haze to pass the time, that's why it's killing the competitive scene because it's not a CFG for competing.

Promod is about punishing you until you overcome that struggle and rise above it, the only way to rise above it though in its dynamics is by team effort and enacting as a unit. The stronger you work together the better the reward should be. If you don't work together you'll most always get wiped, because it's not just about you, it's about how everyone on your team works together to get through the tough demand on you and others skill, Promod is about challenging your true ability of teamwork and making those connections with people, even if sometimes you don't like them, just to get through the map and win to rub it in the other guys faces, that being the true nature of competition.

So suffice it to say I can write more and more, I need to sleep though. I'll be back on Friday and answer questions left, I hope there isn't any, because they are pretty much a waste of time, if you want to play a PUG CFG go play Acemod because it wont challenge you and it's much less stressful.

P.S. Jumprocks are still in promod because we had an idea to make a jumprock key. Needless to say it never happened, also to have a tank without jumprocks is quite dull, the same with bhops, the survivors would just hold W and/or eat a punch away from the tank, the tank doesn't have a way to control a survivor without it. As Luckylock said though there's a danger to scripting again with them being a factor *sigh* goodnight.

Oblv

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 09:34:39 pm »
Acemod is dead... Whats the point to keep comparing against it...

HB
Zonemod 1.6 already balanced ratio of perm/temp. hb to 80/20. Meanwhile, when removing hybrid system entirely, you are coming back to 'temp. health cannon fodder' tactics.
So, with current 80/20 ratio SI still need to plan and focus on most valuable targets.

Guns
In zonemod guns are already nerfed in comparison with acemod. Yes, its still buffed over vanilla ones. Ok, tell us please whats Promod cvars for guns?

I see no smartness  or not 'press 'W' walkthrough' in this config.
Guns nerffing could be discussed only after cfg would be publicly available or someone will provide a detailed changelog against zonemod 1.6 (currently is a pug/scrim standard).
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 09:43:16 pm by Oblv »

Luckylock

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2017, 09:54:17 pm »
Zonemod: Spitter is useless. Uzi is still is too strong. I'm of the opinion that damage bonus was a mistake.

Yes, Zonemod is better in so many ways (and the most polished config) compared to Acemod, but still isn't as fun as Promod.

hib

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2017, 12:43:10 am »
funny thing about this, this is the type of promod i think you (grizz) and I have been talking about. Good job dude on the release. Please provide variables such as melee damage, infected scratch damage and also does the uzi is still buffed/nerfed?

Jacob

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 05:51:27 am »
I will post a full change log when 1.0 is ready (about 1 week). The uzis are slightly nerfed compared to zone mod. To people who think this config is too hard, I think you might just need to play a bit to adjust. I’ve watched some old school high level players (people that used to play pro mod) scrim + pug  on this config and they were making safe rooms with good bonus, the way they played in comparison to most pugs I watch is night and day. They’re more conscious of their positioning. Obviously there’s room for improvement in the config because no config will ever be perfect, but I think this config is fairly well balanced at the moment and does a good job of challenging survivors while still giving them the tools to overcome that challenge.

Sanchez

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2017, 09:40:04 am »
I’m not sure if this is a possible step back in terms of competitiveness compared to acemod, but games are more exciting. And something new is pretty much needed so cool, let’s spitter-gangbang the health bonus yaaa, way funnier for pug/mic purposes, especially cause bad communication will lead to that spitter gangbang. In Acemod mix i can clear easily that noob alone in a bad position and he won’t get much damage, now he needs to be careful. So while in Acemod good survivor skill and infected sync+speed was rewarded now it will be again survivor positioning and smart tactics with SI. The only provlem with 100% health bonus is the possible “tank” player that will try to eat everything and go always first (usually the ultra high skilled shotguns) with no draw backs but, as always, both teams will  do that so the best team will always win.
But i agree with Luckylock & others, at this point almost everyone has the jumprock script. The majority of them will use it, and in cup honestly everyone should hit the script instead of trying the legit jumprock (even if you’re able to get 7/10 on red ping we know the script will give you something like 9.5/10 so no reason to risk with the legit one).
So why not make it public and allow its usage? It’s ridicolous that you see people abusing that (often in obvious ways, you can recognize the script sometimes) and nothing can be done. You want to reward bad tanks with bad movement with that op bug? Reward them correctly at least. There’s no reason to feel dumb by playing legit and failing a wipe due to a missed jumprock when everyone else scripts it in the same match, it’s time for scripting to be legit!
I mean, it’s an old problem that was addressed two years ago in a way by Visor. You can choose another way but not closing your eyes, it will make you look bad writing “no script allowed” with everyone scripting. And it’s unfair tho the guys that will play fair and sometimes do a suboptimal tank due to that.

A thanks to whoever sac his time/money to let this toxic community existing a bit more.

Luckylock

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 11:00:25 pm »
I searched the depths of my autohotkey scripts folder and dusted them off, still working fine. I could put it on here, it's very simple stuff. I would love nothing more than watching the world burn into a sea of jumprocking tanks. Although hilarious (or horrible, depending on your morals), everyone would eventually realise how dumb that is and we would revert back to disabling jumprocks altogether.

So I don't think releasing a public jumprock script or bind (unless there's some forced delay on it?) would be a good idea.

Oblv

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Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2017, 11:46:26 pm »
Just rough spitballing. If people really want jumprocks to be part of a config, then it feels like script should be implemented at plugin level (or somewhere within the cfg itself, correct me if im wrong)  and exposed to client. It means that every player would have same script implementation. As an idea, it could be bound by default to some "X" key, whereas client could bind any other preferred key to some externally exposed !jumprock command.

 

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