L4DNation

L4DNation => General => Topic started by: sinclair on October 30, 2017, 11:12:51 am

Title: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on October 30, 2017, 11:12:51 am
Hi, due to various circumstances the showmatch we promised you highlighting Promod Exlusive was delayed, but will be happening this weekend with signups for our upcoming event on the same config to follow shortly.

First however I want to take this chance to propery introduce [e]Freak. (http://steamcommunity.com/groups/efreak-community) With Hot Mess closing, [e]Freak expanded from being a EU Mix Group to a multi region community. In addition, [e]Freak and Promod Developer Jacob have collaborated on now 2 exclusive configs to be featured in our servers.

Promod Elite(cur 1.5) is a modification of Promod 4.2.2 with gameplay focusing on survivor nerfs: weapons and slowdown and infected buffs: jumprocks re-enabled, multiple hunters and the possibility of quad caps.

Promod Exclusive will be identical to Promod Elite in every way except it will feature a new command !team designed solely for scrims / tournament play allowing Promod Elite to cater to gameplay aspects favorable to the pug community

Code: [Select]
ProMod Exlusive 1.0:
- Tank rocks now ignore god frames.
- Spectators can now see witch glows.
- Teams can now start a vote with !team to enable "Team Mode".
- In Team Mode, infected players can use !mytank during ready-up to set themselves as the tank for that round, so long as they haven't already played as the tank.
- In Team Mode, infected can change the location of their tank spawn during ready-up. They can not move the tank to a banned range. Use: '!movetank 50' will set the the tank to 50%.
- In Team Mode, tanks can not spawn before 20% or after 80%.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on October 30, 2017, 08:06:44 pm
In L4D2 so far, whenever a community dies, another one rises from the ashes and the scraps of what is left of the playerbase can keep on playing. Although it does seem to happen every time, there will come a time when there won't be another Deli, another Sir, another ZenDigital, etc...

That being said, we have to be grateful to the ones providing us with high quality servers for nothing in return. There's a lot of time and money that goes into maintaining L4D2 servers.

PROMOD FEEDBACK
To Jacob / Grizz / Jay: I would like to see the "normal" version of promod be exactly like the "tournament edition" except for the !mytank feature. I'm thinking tank punches and rocks should do damage to smoked survivors in both versions, for example. Thank you for bringing some of that old promod gameplay back.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Oblv on October 30, 2017, 10:08:56 pm
No hybrid scoring and rambo ladder shooting? 'Skilled' 10/10 jump-rockers are welcome back?
Is config going to be published at github?
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on October 31, 2017, 12:02:37 am
In regards to the "favourable to pugs"

- The only thing thats going to make pugging better is making tanks not last for ten years like they always seem to do in pick up games. People just don't care enough to LOS tanks in pugs and leads to survivors not making it to saferoom most of the time and its pretty boring. Out of all the pugs I've seen on this new config, its pretty obvious nothing has changed, teams are still getting demolished and wiped due to a lack of care/skill being presented before and during the tank.

- Allowing teams to choose tank percentages means we'll have the exact same tank being played every match because there is obviously a spectrum of tanks in each campaign that have varying difficulty. People will obviously choose the most difficult one each time. Im not sure how this contributes to a more balanced meta, if anything it just makes the tank even more difficult. Also, does that mean that the teams can choose different tanks in the same round? Because if that is the case, people will choose the earliest tank 80% of the time.

- About the godframes: seems way to punishing

- Without rock-tanks, the meta would be extremely boring- But surely we have realised that map design simply does not accommodate for much balance in a lot of situations. Making rock-tanks more important is definitely a good idea however there is so many map percentages that gives the tank an extraordinary advantage even in survivor sided configs like acemod. Surely tanks should be put under more pressure when they play as rock tanks, for example increasing the time that a rock throw takes to reload. Atleast if you are going to make the tank more powerful from a long range, make the survivors LOS more effective or add more deagles. Buffing long distance tanks would mean that Home-Away matches would be even more unbalanced, not to mention players struggle to los in pugs without someone screaming over mumble. Long-range sided tank configs definitely make meta less linear (linear in terms of eq3 etc) which is certainly a good thing however if you are going to buff them in this manner it seems logical to buff the counter-balancing aspects on the survivor side too (example below)


                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

(Extremely basic and condensed obviously things change situationally)

 least skilled rock-tank  >--------------------------------------------------->  Most skilled rock tank
 
  - Does not land rocks                                                                      - Synchronises rocks and lands them
  - Bad at keeping sight                                                                     - Able to keep good sight and rotate succesfully
  - Takes unnecessary dmg                                                                - Takes minimal dmg
  - Loses rage quickly                                                                        - Does not lose rage/wipes

 Least skilled Survivors >----------------------------------------------------> Most skilled survivors

  - Gets hit by rocks during attacks/no attack                                      - Avoids all rocks during hits/no hits
  - Does not LOS effectively while SI is down                                       - Maximum LOS, able to rotate into most optimal spot for next hit
  - poor use of opportunities to chip/inappropriate use                          - Chips tank optimally (Forces a low hp commit or sends it AI)
  - Unaware of tank pos, poor LOS'ing                                                 - Aware of tank pos, LOS at right time, shoots unavoidable rocks: Survives

- Terrible diagram but the point is, if you make it easier to be good at rock-tank then you need to make it so that better survivors will beat worse tanks. In this config, the tank has been made easier thus the better-survivor team should be rewarded more for playing closer to the 'most skilled survivor'. A competitive config should look to reward the best possible survivors and the best possible tanks more than the worst and by making it easier for bad tanks to succeed, that balance is being thrown off. If rock tanks are to be buffed then the survivors counter-measures need to be buffed as well. This would likely come in the form of increased rage decay and decreased rage-decay onset (+longer reload for tank rocks). Plus thats not even factoring in other variables such as poor map design..


                                                                                                                                                                                                                   



I think for a 'pug' config to work you'll have to make rock tanks negligible (Make it so that rocks don't reset rage? quick games a good game). Because the levels of satisfaction that people are showing towards the current config is unchanged if not decreased in pug's- No one likes limping to safe-room after a 20% rock-tank, its just not enjoyable. On top of that I've noticed survivors can hardly make it to tank with green health because of SI damage, primarily due to spitter. I also agree about having a standardised config that is the same across different match modes, it really sets a standard of play. However on that note I have no clue how you would decrease rock tanks in pugs but still have the complex meta that tourny matches have. I would speculate that the most major issues confogl/promod/etc has is map design in regards to tanks. There is numerous tanks that are near impossible to LOS and it makes playing them in pugs not very enjoyable. It should be possible to make a config that is fun and survivable in pugs but also favour high level strategy. I enjoy this config however I think it needs a lot of balancing before it can surpass its predecessors. And it would be amazing if for once long-standing meta issues with the tank were addressed so we no longer had to put up with guaranteed wipes and near impossible LOS percentages.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Jacob on October 31, 2017, 06:42:21 am

PROMOD FEEDBACK
To Jacob / Grizz / Jay: I would like to see the "normal" version of promod be exactly like the "tournament edition" except for the !mytank feature. I'm thinking tank punches and rocks should do damage to smoked survivors in both versions, for example. Thank you for bringing some of that old promod gameplay back.

I just want to clarify because I think jay misunderstood how it's going to work: There's only 1 config, Pro Mod Elite. In that config during readyup you can use !team to start a vote which will enable the tank features. There will not be any balance changes between the 2 versions.

stuff
The changelog jay posted isn't exactly final, I'm still making some small tweaks and thinking about how to improve it.

Instead of making rocks ignore godframes I'm actually just going to remove the 0.1 second smoker godframes and leave them the same for everyone else, so tank rocks arent getting a massive buff here.

I could agree to maybe looking into some other ways to "buff" survivors vs rock tanks.

I've also been making tweaks to spit damage and godframes as I've been watching pugs trying to find a right balance.

As for people moving tanks to always be in the most OP positions I agree, I talked with a few people a bit yesterday and the solution I came up with was to limit each team to moving the tank twice per campaign. That would mean you would have to think about whether you want to use the default spawn on a map to save your "tank choice" for a later map. I think that would raise the skill cap of decision making while still requiring teams to be good at every tank.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on October 31, 2017, 12:41:23 pm
Fridays: Survivors should struggle and yes, limp their way to the saferoom... When you say "No one likes limping to safe-room after a 20% rock-tank, its just not enjoyable." I completely disagree with you in the sense that the other alternative makes SI completely miserable to play. Not only that, but there's also less room for improving as survivors.

Survivors shutting down SI with laser-beam accurate uzi (acemod?) makes playing SI miserable, and nothing fun ever happens. The window of opportunity to multicap is so small because you can clear incredibly fast with acemod uzi. Good luck getting anything done with your attacks.

Now about jumprocks, it is no secret that this feature is incredibly easy to write a script for. I have yet to see anyone get banned for abusing jumprock scripts, so what is the verdict on that? If you host a tournament with jumprocks enabled, I guarantee you will see a few people jumprock 10 times in a row on a 100 tick server. If that isn't scripting, I don't know what is. The fundamental problem is that jumprock scripts are undedectable. Mr. Scripts could press his jumprock bind once or twice in crucial moments and nobody could notice.

For bhop, same thing applies. You can land a single bhop off a roof with the SI ghost speed and you get a sick spawn. Nobody will notice. That is also easily scriptable. SMAC only detects if you land a couple bhops in a row.

I'm not saying to not introduce back those features / bugs, but keep in mind that this issue will rise again and we can only be suspicious of people. If you have a rule in place like "no jumprock scripts" and have no way of enforcing it then that rule is useless, and so either disable jumprock entirely or allow it. Otherwise you're putting a rule with no consequences.

Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on October 31, 2017, 08:11:54 pm
The easiest solution would be to add a bind that allows for over-arm jump-rocks. Similar to the plugin that added rock selections.

- If you can't enforce a 'no scripts' policy then the most logical thing to do would be to allow anyone to do it so that scripters no longer have an unfair advantage. Jump-rocks aren't exactly game changing aswell, at best they allow for better commits and easier rock-tanking.


Fridays: Survivors should struggle and yes, limp their way to the saferoom... When you say "No one likes limping to safe-room after a 20% rock-tank, its just not enjoyable." I completely disagree with you in the sense that the other alternative makes SI completely miserable to play. Not only that, but there's also less room for improving as survivors.

- I agree with that. Acemod definitely made SI dry to play. But my point was that at least in a pug situation players aren't really fussed with bleeding as soon as a round starts because of a long tank. People don't care enough to LOS in pugs and it leads to a boring 'war of attrition'. Don't give survivors lighting guns like acemod, just make it so that tanks commit for pug matches. This could just mean that rocks don't refill rage in pugs.

Survivors shutting down SI with laser-beam accurate uzi (acemod?) makes playing SI miserable, and nothing fun ever happens. The window of opportunity to multicap is so small because you can clear incredibly fast with acemod uzi. Good luck getting anything done with your attacks.

- Agreed. I think Zonemod found a pretty decent balance which I hope this config adopts.

For bhop, same thing applies. You can land a single bhop off a roof with the SI ghost speed and you get a sick spawn. Nobody will notice. That is also easily scriptable. SMAC only detects if you land a couple bhops in a row.

I'm not saying to not introduce back those features / bugs, but keep in mind that this issue will rise again and we can only be suspicious of people. If you have a rule in place like "no jumprock scripts" and have no way of enforcing it then that rule is useless, and so either disable jumprock entirely or allow it. Otherwise you're putting a rule with no consequences.

- Bhop definitely doesn't have a place in competitive. I still think the best way for enabling jump-rocks is to add a bind, while disabling the player from performing it themselves. You could even add a cooldown(8 seconds?) on the jumprock bind so that tanks cannot spam them.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Griz on October 31, 2017, 08:35:14 pm
Hi Friday and also anyone else who reads this, I want to make this post as simple as it can be "I think therefore I am" - (Rene Descartes).

Ok so, the title (Promod: Elite) is rhetorical and should mirror to anyones mind what stem of thoughts exist behind the the title and why they are needed to be reimplemented, at least in realistic application to what competition is.
 The reason why we're bringing back promod, all the way down to its scoring system it's because we want to reimplement a system which challenges survivor teams directly, I don't even know why I have to explain this line of reason *sigh* but I guess I have to, so let's start with some reasons why and point out some flaws and also deduct the real issue which is, we're coming from 2 different lines of reasoning, I'm aiming to make this game hard and challenging by intent such being the nature of competition, (the strong rise above and challenge themselves also challenging others). You're aiming to bring equity and balance so everyone can play and make it to saferoom, which is exactly what is killing (competitive l4d2). It has been a crutch for weaker teams but stronger individual players for a while, it puts on a great outward hold W showing but that's about it - (Acemod)

1.(Health bonus)- provides a system of values in which teams can adapt and rotate to positions throughout the round provoking them to think about where they need to be and who they need to cover to win the round, bringing of course a forced unity for the outcome of the stronger and well ordered team. (counter effect)- the infected have to act and re-act as they also are being provoked to infiltrate the survivor team and attack the survivors that hold a higher value, this sets a constant draw on the infected and survivors to apply more thought rather than just throwing SI at others randomly, HB is a matter of wits more than it is about holding W, it's needed for teams to function and maintain interest, and also create a logical and self adapting structure of each and everyones team.

^ (Flaws of HB) However it could be "exploited" in times past by not having doors broken in 1 scratch, also by having deadstops on hunters and there not being quad caps. So we've worked on a couple of those flaws which should now help the SI out a bit, but terrible SI attacks have always been accompanied by just lazy minded people who couldn't understand how to be clever, so they just complained "the scoring system is broken." Then removed the needed attack/defense scoring system to define how teams are rewarded, then when the system of values of attack/defense were removed people just needed to confide in their own skills and that alone, because that's how you would win the meta of (Damage Bonus)/ (EQ/Acemod). (counter effect) well pretty much this is where things got really abstract because the SI necessity to be clever became chaotic almost entirely because there's minimal values to attack, so it became let's count down and dive into the other team, later it became blended with HB though I think.

2.Why is this CFG so hard? The entire design of the CFG (Promod:E) is to go against this idea of equity, (Acemod) - is a CFG that allows everyone to have fun and hold W throughout the map with little punishment for your mistakes, it allows players to function freely in and out around the map using buffed weapons and nerfed SI without ever feeling pressured for your failure or to succeed, it puts all individuals in control of their own dynamics and actions and teaches you to focus mostly on just yourself, I mean Acemod is the ideal CFG for chill easy going invidually skilled PUG players.

^Problem with Acemod is that it doesn't offer a challenge, it's essentially just all about chill and go with it. There's no clear direction it's practically just a haze to pass the time, that's why it's killing the competitive scene because it's not a CFG for competing.

Promod is about punishing you until you overcome that struggle and rise above it, the only way to rise above it though in its dynamics is by team effort and enacting as a unit. The stronger you work together the better the reward should be. If you don't work together you'll most always get wiped, because it's not just about you, it's about how everyone on your team works together to get through the tough demand on you and others skill, Promod is about challenging your true ability of teamwork and making those connections with people, even if sometimes you don't like them, just to get through the map and win to rub it in the other guys faces, that being the true nature of competition.

So suffice it to say I can write more and more, I need to sleep though. I'll be back on Friday and answer questions left, I hope there isn't any, because they are pretty much a waste of time, if you want to play a PUG CFG go play Acemod because it wont challenge you and it's much less stressful.

P.S. Jumprocks are still in promod because we had an idea to make a jumprock key. Needless to say it never happened, also to have a tank without jumprocks is quite dull, the same with bhops, the survivors would just hold W and/or eat a punch away from the tank, the tank doesn't have a way to control a survivor without it. As Luckylock said though there's a danger to scripting again with them being a factor *sigh* goodnight.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Oblv on October 31, 2017, 09:34:39 pm
Acemod is dead... Whats the point to keep comparing against it...

HB
Zonemod 1.6 already balanced ratio of perm/temp. hb to 80/20. Meanwhile, when removing hybrid system entirely, you are coming back to 'temp. health cannon fodder' tactics.
So, with current 80/20 ratio SI still need to plan and focus on most valuable targets.

Guns
In zonemod guns are already nerfed in comparison with acemod. Yes, its still buffed over vanilla ones. Ok, tell us please whats Promod cvars for guns?

I see no smartness  or not 'press 'W' walkthrough' in this config.
Guns nerffing could be discussed only after cfg would be publicly available or someone will provide a detailed changelog against zonemod 1.6 (currently is a pug/scrim standard).
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on October 31, 2017, 09:54:17 pm
Zonemod: Spitter is useless. Uzi is still is too strong. I'm of the opinion that damage bonus was a mistake.

Yes, Zonemod is better in so many ways (and the most polished config) compared to Acemod, but still isn't as fun as Promod.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: hib on November 01, 2017, 12:43:10 am
funny thing about this, this is the type of promod i think you (grizz) and I have been talking about. Good job dude on the release. Please provide variables such as melee damage, infected scratch damage and also does the uzi is still buffed/nerfed?
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Jacob on November 01, 2017, 05:51:27 am
I will post a full change log when 1.0 is ready (about 1 week). The uzis are slightly nerfed compared to zone mod. To people who think this config is too hard, I think you might just need to play a bit to adjust. I’ve watched some old school high level players (people that used to play pro mod) scrim + pug  on this config and they were making safe rooms with good bonus, the way they played in comparison to most pugs I watch is night and day. They’re more conscious of their positioning. Obviously there’s room for improvement in the config because no config will ever be perfect, but I think this config is fairly well balanced at the moment and does a good job of challenging survivors while still giving them the tools to overcome that challenge.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Sanchez on November 01, 2017, 09:40:04 am
I’m not sure if this is a possible step back in terms of competitiveness compared to acemod, but games are more exciting. And something new is pretty much needed so cool, let’s spitter-gangbang the health bonus yaaa, way funnier for pug/mic purposes, especially cause bad communication will lead to that spitter gangbang. In Acemod mix i can clear easily that noob alone in a bad position and he won’t get much damage, now he needs to be careful. So while in Acemod good survivor skill and infected sync+speed was rewarded now it will be again survivor positioning and smart tactics with SI. The only provlem with 100% health bonus is the possible “tank” player that will try to eat everything and go always first (usually the ultra high skilled shotguns) with no draw backs but, as always, both teams will  do that so the best team will always win.
But i agree with Luckylock & others, at this point almost everyone has the jumprock script. The majority of them will use it, and in cup honestly everyone should hit the script instead of trying the legit jumprock (even if you’re able to get 7/10 on red ping we know the script will give you something like 9.5/10 so no reason to risk with the legit one).
So why not make it public and allow its usage? It’s ridicolous that you see people abusing that (often in obvious ways, you can recognize the script sometimes) and nothing can be done. You want to reward bad tanks with bad movement with that op bug? Reward them correctly at least. There’s no reason to feel dumb by playing legit and failing a wipe due to a missed jumprock when everyone else scripts it in the same match, it’s time for scripting to be legit!
I mean, it’s an old problem that was addressed two years ago in a way by Visor. You can choose another way but not closing your eyes, it will make you look bad writing “no script allowed” with everyone scripting. And it’s unfair tho the guys that will play fair and sometimes do a suboptimal tank due to that.

A thanks to whoever sac his time/money to let this toxic community existing a bit more.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on November 01, 2017, 11:00:25 pm
I searched the depths of my autohotkey scripts folder and dusted them off, still working fine. I could put it on here, it's very simple stuff. I would love nothing more than watching the world burn into a sea of jumprocking tanks. Although hilarious (or horrible, depending on your morals), everyone would eventually realise how dumb that is and we would revert back to disabling jumprocks altogether.

So I don't think releasing a public jumprock script or bind (unless there's some forced delay on it?) would be a good idea.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Oblv on November 01, 2017, 11:46:26 pm
Just rough spitballing. If people really want jumprocks to be part of a config, then it feels like script should be implemented at plugin level (or somewhere within the cfg itself, correct me if im wrong)  and exposed to client. It means that every player would have same script implementation. As an idea, it could be bound by default to some "X" key, whereas client could bind any other preferred key to some externally exposed !jumprock command.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on November 01, 2017, 11:54:40 pm
If you're going to allow jumprocks, then add a jumprock bind which has a cooldown.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: hib on November 02, 2017, 12:08:46 am
Acemod is dead... Whats the point to keep comparing against it...

HB
Zonemod 1.6 already balanced ratio of perm/temp. hb to 80/20. Meanwhile, when removing hybrid system entirely, you are coming back to 'temp. health cannon fodder' tactics.
So, with current 80/20 ratio SI still need to plan and focus on most valuable targets.

Guns
In zonemod guns are already nerfed in comparison with acemod. Yes, its still buffed over vanilla ones. Ok, tell us please whats Promod cvars for guns?

I see no smartness  or not 'press 'W' walkthrough' in this config.
Guns nerffing could be discussed only after cfg would be publicly available or someone will provide a detailed changelog against zonemod 1.6 (currently is a pug/scrim standard).

the 80/20 should be more of a 90/10. The fact that red temp hp people getting like 200+ bonus in itself is rediculous
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: hib on November 02, 2017, 01:40:15 am
To deal with open areas, add props to it to allow SI to get damage.

If people haven't realized, on dark carnival 1, right next to the saferoom, a bush prop was added onto there to give more options for SI to spawn. I think one way of further balancing it would be to add a small spot near the billboard to allow for an SI to spawn there so SI don't get shut down so quickly from far away.

I, personally stopped playing this game because playing SI seemed really annoying, when hunters got skeeted in one shot in just about every range. And in the following configs: zonemod and acemod, even when you landed your pounce, you'd get rewarded with little to no damage. I don't like the damage output the SI were giving the survivors. In the past, the game was really fun due to the infected's ability to slowdown and/or incap survivors after landing a decent hit. But with the nerfed spitter, it's another story. Why even have a spitter if it's going to be that nerfed lol
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Bravo on November 02, 2017, 11:15:43 am
Hi Friday and also anyone else who reads this, I want to make this post as simple as it can be "I think therefore I am" - (Rene Descartes).

Ok so, the title (Promod: Elite) is rhetorical and should mirror to anyones mind what stem of thoughts exist behind the the title and why they are needed to be reimplemented, at least in realistic application to what competition is.
 The reason why we're bringing back promod, all the way down to its scoring system it's because we want to reimplement a system which challenges survivor teams directly, I don't even know why I have to explain this line of reason *sigh* but I guess I have to, so let's start with some reasons why and point out some flaws and also deduct the real issue which is, we're coming from 2 different lines of reasoning, I'm aiming to make this game hard and challenging by intent such being the nature of competition, (the strong rise above and challenge themselves also challenging others). You're aiming to bring equity and balance so everyone can play and make it to saferoom, which is exactly what is killing (competitive l4d2). It has been a crutch for weaker teams but stronger individual players for a while, it puts on a great outward hold W showing but that's about it - (Acemod)

1.(Health bonus)- provides a system of values in which teams can adapt and rotate to positions throughout the round provoking them to think about where they need to be and who they need to cover to win the round, bringing of course a forced unity for the outcome of the stronger and well ordered team. (counter effect)- the infected have to act and re-act as they also are being provoked to infiltrate the survivor team and attack the survivors that hold a higher value, this sets a constant draw on the infected and survivors to apply more thought rather than just throwing SI at others randomly, HB is a matter of wits more than it is about holding W, it's needed for teams to function and maintain interest, and also create a logical and self adapting structure of each and everyones team.

^ (Flaws of HB) However it could be "exploited" in times past by not having doors broken in 1 scratch, also by having deadstops on hunters and there not being quad caps. So we've worked on a couple of those flaws which should now help the SI out a bit, but terrible SI attacks have always been accompanied by just lazy minded people who couldn't understand how to be clever, so they just complained "the scoring system is broken." Then removed the needed attack/defense scoring system to define how teams are rewarded, then when the system of values of attack/defense were removed people just needed to confide in their own skills and that alone, because that's how you would win the meta of (Damage Bonus)/ (EQ/Acemod). (counter effect) well pretty much this is where things got really abstract because the SI necessity to be clever became chaotic almost entirely because there's minimal values to attack, so it became let's count down and dive into the other team, later it became blended with HB though I think.

2.Why is this CFG so hard? The entire design of the CFG (Promod:E) is to go against this idea of equity, (Acemod) - is a CFG that allows everyone to have fun and hold W throughout the map with little punishment for your mistakes, it allows players to function freely in and out around the map using buffed weapons and nerfed SI without ever feeling pressured for your failure or to succeed, it puts all individuals in control of their own dynamics and actions and teaches you to focus mostly on just yourself, I mean Acemod is the ideal CFG for chill easy going invidually skilled PUG players.

^Problem with Acemod is that it doesn't offer a challenge, it's essentially just all about chill and go with it. There's no clear direction it's practically just a haze to pass the time, that's why it's killing the competitive scene because it's not a CFG for competing.

Promod is about punishing you until you overcome that struggle and rise above it, the only way to rise above it though in its dynamics is by team effort and enacting as a unit. The stronger you work together the better the reward should be. If you don't work together you'll most always get wiped, because it's not just about you, it's about how everyone on your team works together to get through the tough demand on you and others skill, Promod is about challenging your true ability of teamwork and making those connections with people, even if sometimes you don't like them, just to get through the map and win to rub it in the other guys faces, that being the true nature of competition.

So suffice it to say I can write more and more, I need to sleep though. I'll be back on Friday and answer questions left, I hope there isn't any, because they are pretty much a waste of time, if you want to play a PUG CFG go play Acemod because it wont challenge you and it's much less stressful.

P.S. Jumprocks are still in promod because we had an idea to make a jumprock key. Needless to say it never happened, also to have a tank without jumprocks is quite dull, the same with bhops, the survivors would just hold W and/or eat a punch away from the tank, the tank doesn't have a way to control a survivor without it. As Luckylock said though there's a danger to scripting again with them being a factor *sigh* goodnight.

At least you kept it simple.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on November 03, 2017, 12:02:52 am
This config is meant to revive the competitive community but the admins have decided that the tournament will not accomodate for Asian/Australian players (Which have made up 40% of participating teams in the past) because "its too much hassle" to play with a higher ping in those regions. What kind of progress is this meant to be?
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on November 03, 2017, 03:52:02 am
This config is meant to revive the competitive community but the admins have decided that the tournament will not accomodate for Asian/Australian players (Which have made up 40% of participating teams in the past) because "its too much hassle" to play with a higher ping in those regions. What kind of progress is this meant to be?
the higher ping is not the issue. the problem is everything that comes with accommodating an asian team at least. First, it is a given that 2 matches will be required, so you are looking at 3 hours, and thats if its a short vanilla campaign with minimal pausing. the other problem is the time zone difference. combine the two together and it makes it near impossible for north american players and asian players to schedule a 3-4 hour event when you are starting at such times as 11 at night on either side. so you can see, the ping is the least of it.

However, [e]Freak is opening up several new midwest servers this week. What we would do is they would get one game on the closest server, like we did prior to the home / away system when foreign teams entered American tournaments. That and they would be explicitly told not to sign up if they can't play at times that Americans / Europeans can. I'm sorry if this offends you but the ffs are just not worth it.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Dyl Dough on November 04, 2017, 07:27:41 pm
You can easily schedule matches with Asian teams. Asians can easily schedule matches with NA teams.

I've scheduled multiple matches easily over the years with Asian teams and normally they are the easiest ones to schedule. I have more problems with NA or EU teams fighting over which server to use so they get 15 better ms than I have with Asian teams. You sound ignorant. It's not a teams location that makes them hard to schedule against. It's their team composition and their captain that is deciding to be a douche bag and fight over time and location rather than just realizing if they want to play they need to be aware of the scheduling realities from the moment they enter.

If your team mates aren't flexible then you shouldn't have them on your team or you risk forfeiting. Plain and simple.

Everyone should be allowed to enter and have a fair chance to play.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on November 04, 2017, 07:43:45 pm
@Dyl I think they're allowed to enter, but they just won't be accomodated for, meaning NA teams won't have to play on an asian server. Also NA teams won't be expected to play at 4 AM.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on November 04, 2017, 09:14:09 pm
I now have an opinion on jumprocks...

The theoretical best game does not have any action that is worth scripting.

Introducing back jumprocks, or even having double pistols being able to be fired at 10 times a second I disagree with.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Dyl Dough on November 05, 2017, 12:28:53 am
@Dyl I think they're allowed to enter, but they just won't be accomodated for, meaning NA teams won't have to play on an asian server. Also NA teams won't be expected to play at 4 AM.

Well, NA teams should have to play on an Asian server. That's the entire point of a tournament being competitive and fair. It can't be competitive if the deck is stacked in the favor of one continent and it causes a better team to lose only due to a ping advantage. If their servers are up to date and reliable then I don't see why there's a problem.

Also, I regularly schedule skype meetings with my new boss in Korea at very convenient times for us both. 8pm CST for me and 10 am KST for her. So I don't understand what everyone is complaining about.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on November 05, 2017, 01:28:27 am
I would argue that playing with 300 ping (or against 300 ping players) is not an enjoyable experience. It has nothing to do with the fact that they're ''asians'' and no discrimination is being applied here. The simple fact that data takes a lot of time to travel accross the world makes the gameplay not enjoyable for a lot of people. While I agree with the "equal opportunity" philosophy, it doesn't apply here because people (including myself) simply don't want to go through scheduling and high ping gameplay. If you want competition, ideally you're going to have a LAN tournament. These pings turn the game in a complete joke if you ask me.

I've also had terrible experience with trying to play a match against people of China, where they spent a couple HOURS reconnecting and switching VPN because of the Chinese governement firewall while we stuck around waiting because we didn't want yet another FFW. It absolutely sucks for them, and I feel for the Chinese people, but it doesn't change the fact that after that day I would refuse to commit to a match against a team from China. The reality is that the experience of the home / away system is awful for most.

That being said, I'm guessing there's nothing that forces you to NOT play on asian servers if you are willing to do so for the sake of "competitive integrity". But like I said, there's nothing "competitive" about 300 ping gameplay IMO.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Artifacial on November 05, 2017, 02:52:23 am
That being said, I'm guessing there's nothing that forces you to NOT play on asian servers if you are willing to do so for the sake of "competitive integrity". But like I said, there's nothing "competitive" about 300 ping gameplay IMO.

Curious, but where do you get 300 ping to? In those situations I always just assumed the most amicable solution would be for the two teams to play it out on a neutral server, no? (which tends to be around ~160).

To weigh in on the argument; most of the more enjoyable games I've watched over the years as a spectator tended to involve Asian teams versing NA teams in a home/away scenario. A few years ago when Japanese players were active in the scene, games always provided good viewing. Would be a shame to lose that. As for scheduling - at least in our experience, we've had to regularly bend over backwards to schedule games suited to American time zones, waking up at 6am etc. (no resentment there mind you, we were always willing to do so, as tournaments were mostly organised by the American players, so it makes sense to gravitate more towards American timeslots). I've also historically found it a lot easier dealing with players from Asia than America  :P

That being said, it's obviously up to whoever is organsing the tournament. If home/away is deemed too difficult from a management point of view, so be it. There's nothing stopping us in Asia from hosting our own tournaments.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on November 05, 2017, 02:55:02 pm
signups and rules will be coming this week. in the meantime look forward to L2L (pending enough signups) next sat @ 7:30
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Dyl Dough on November 06, 2017, 01:51:46 pm
If we didn't accommodate for a regions of the world we would have never have had the best team in Left 4 Dead 2 history dominate the scene for years.

nv- - AN ASIAN TEAM

Your reasoning just sounds like you "don't want to deal with it."
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Lupee on November 06, 2017, 08:33:16 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/TjDMn7g.png)
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: iamSun on November 07, 2017, 06:17:44 pm
What?

Game is like dying and stuff.

And out of the blue you idiots don't want to threat different regions fairly now?
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on November 07, 2017, 07:30:23 pm
If we didn't accommodate for a regions of the world we would have never have had the best team in Left 4 Dead 2 history dominate the scene for years.

nv- - AN ASIAN TEAM

Your reasoning just sounds like you "don't want to deal with it."
What?

Game is like dying and stuff.

And out of the blue you idiots don't want to threat different regions fairly now?
I think what we will do is similar to previous events. Plenty of foreign teams still entered, but with the expectation that they would have to conform, not the other way around. nV certainly was a great team Dylan, and they entered many US tournaments under these circumstances, one of which against you RBT (https://www.l4dnation.com/rbt-summer-tournament/rbt-round-4-pairings!/msg31953/#msg3195). You seemed to have no problem playing them in one US game then. But like Artifacial said, teams that are able to accommodate the asian teams and potentially play the two games are encouraged to; just we will not compel teams to play past normal hours, 2 games, or on asian servers if they are not able to.   
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: yams on November 07, 2017, 08:45:37 pm
I now have an opinion on jumprocks...

The theoretical best game does not have any action that is worth scripting.

Introducing back jumprocks, or even having double pistols being able to be fired at 10 times a second I disagree with.
ez fix (dunno how easy code-side) find a way to double the window for which u can jump in rock throw animation no one needs scripts, you can find a way to incorporate unintended things that add depth(dota 2 item dropping to maximize resources, now you don't have to drop your stuff on the ground!)
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on November 08, 2017, 01:16:42 am
potentially play the two games are encouraged to; just we will not compel teams to play past normal hours, 2 games, or on asian servers if they are not able to.   

You're a complete moron if you think 'encouraging' teams to accomodate for asia/aus is going to do anything. If a team can get away with making the opposition play with a ping disadvantage, every single team will without a doubt. What a joke..


Is the config going to be made public at some point?
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Sanchez on November 08, 2017, 04:23:38 am
Some random ideas:

You can force asian teams to play na/eu on times that are reasonally comfortable for na/eu, for example 19-01 workdays, 15-04 saturday, 10-01 sunday, it’s a random example of an average worker free time, obviously there’s people that work during weekend or during the evening but scheduling couple games in 7 whole days shouldn’t be hard if you’re here to play a game that you enjoy. Asians will have to play on weird times like 6am and eu/usa to go party once less or sleep 1 hour less (not extreme sacrifices), that’s it.

You can put a limit of pauses per chapter, so one guy reconnecting 10 times will not be a problem. Or put infinite pauses with a max total pause time of like 3/4 min per chapter.

Also playing single games where the average ping difference isn’t big (example: 95ms vs 120ms) is way more fair than some home/away games (example: home 45ms vs 220ms on server with solid hitreg, away 260ms vs 15ms on bad server).
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: iamSun on November 08, 2017, 05:09:19 am
I think what we will do is similar to previous events. Plenty of foreign teams still entered, but with the expectation that they would have to conform, not the other way around. nV certainly was a great team Dylan, and they entered many US tournaments under these circumstances, one of which against you RBT (https://www.l4dnation.com/rbt-summer-tournament/rbt-round-4-pairings!/msg31953/#msg3195). You seemed to have no problem playing them in one US game then. But like Artifacial said, teams that are able to accommodate the asian teams and potentially play the two games are encouraged to; just we will not compel teams to play past normal hours, 2 games, or on asian servers if they are not able to.
As Fridays pointed out - not a single team will play on away server if they are not obliged to do so.

nv- is probably strongest team we ever seen. If teams are equal, ping will play a key role. If other team is MUCH stronger, then it's not that important. It's still huge advantage though. It's so simple, but you really don't get it?
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on November 08, 2017, 01:58:36 pm
I understand the potential disadvantages you guys are pointing out but Sanchez's point holds true, it is simply too much to ask to play at some of these times. So yes, asian teams will be at a considerable disadvantage if they choose to enter but this isn't the UN. Our community is predominantly US and European, with 100% of the funding and administration for this tournament coming from those two regions.

As I said before, [e]Freak is currently expanding further in the midwest US; most likely, matches involving asian teams will be played on denver, with east coast players averaging 60-90, and west coast players having green ping, vs asian players playing with 150-220.

Definitely a considerable advantage, but what I'd like to point out is that we have tried the home / away system for every region, and at least from my experience playing, streaming and administrating SND / eFPS it was plagued with FF's, noshow's and teams forced to get ringer(s) to compensate for teammates being unable to make the match times. I think we have been more than fair, especially considering asian events do not extend the same home / away invitation, but for the sake of the players still left, i dont think they want to (more trouble than its worth) or even can make the necessary accommodations to allow US vs Asia and EU vs Asia home / away.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Dyl Dough on November 09, 2017, 12:08:26 am
I think what we will do is similar to previous events. Plenty of foreign teams still entered, but with the expectation that they would have to conform, not the other way around. nV certainly was a great team Dylan, and they entered many US tournaments under these circumstances, one of which against you RBT (https://www.l4dnation.com/rbt-summer-tournament/rbt-round-4-pairings!/msg31953/#msg3195). You seemed to have no problem playing them in one US game then. But like Artifacial said, teams that are able to accommodate the asian teams and potentially play the two games are encouraged to; just we will not compel teams to play past normal hours, 2 games, or on asian servers if they are not able to.

It was home and away. If you see on Rail's Post in that post you linked to it. He says "2nd game in that stream."

Also, regardless of how those rules were in that Tournament, I would have preferred to play home and away in order for it to be more fair. I would much rather play on fair ground than to win against a team that had a huge disadvantage. nv obviously didn't need that fair ground because they were amazing.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Pariah on November 09, 2017, 10:38:38 am
It was home and away. If you see on Rail's Post in that post you linked to it. He says "2nd game in that stream."

Also, regardless of how those rules were in that Tournament, I would have preferred to play home and away in order for it to be more fair. I would much rather play on fair ground than to win against a team that had a huge disadvantage. nv obviously didn't need that fair ground because they were amazing.

It was one game, He is talking about a match involving two others teams played just prior to your match, Hence the second game in that stream vod, not the second game involving Nv and Wolfpack. That RBT tournament was certainly American server only.

On topic; Jay, I don't think this is the time to be catering to specific regions or groups of people, The game is on it's last legs and it's only going in one direction if you start acting in a divisive manner. That being said If the owners of your group want a tournament based in their region then that's completely up to them and nobody can really complain, They are the ones funding the servers.

I'll be honest, the problem with home and away was never the time taken to complete the matches, Let's stop pretending that  everyone participating doesn't have far more than 2 hours per week to set aside for a match. The problem was that there was a bunch of people who would make scheduling a match akin to walking through the fires of hell. That's solved by taking a hands on approach to officiating the tournament - I.e you determine where teams will be playing their matches and don't leave it up to them to squabble about, that's when the problems begin. Best of luck with your tournament but at this point I really doubt you'll get many teams entering this.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Pariah on November 09, 2017, 10:39:40 am
Oops
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: bueno clinic on November 09, 2017, 01:09:18 pm
gaem is ded, 0ms players win or they suck
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on November 09, 2017, 03:12:43 pm
Game might be dead, but the forum sure comes sparkling with life when a controversial topic shows up. Heck, even the exiled Danne chimed in!

Although I despise high ping gameplay, for the sake of having more teams sign up, it might be better to apply the "fair" home / away system everywhere, including Asia (or not).

Playing with high ping degrades the experience a lot, but so does having a low amount of teams. I wonder which is worse? That ultimately comes down to "pick your poison". Everyone's different, so no one is wrong or right in a sense. Ergo it's up to the tournament organisers to decide, and we shouldn't give him flack for making a decision like this.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Pariah on November 09, 2017, 03:25:02 pm
Game might be dead, but the forum sure comes sparkling with life when a controversial topic shows up. Heck, even the exiled Danne chimed in!

Although I despise high ping gameplay, for the sake of having more teams sign up, it might be better to apply the "fair" home / away system everywhere, including Asia (or not).

Playing with high ping degrades the experience a lot, but so does having a low amount of teams. I wonder which is worse? That ultimately comes down to "pick your poison". Everyone's different, so no one is wrong or right in a sense. Ergo it's up to the tournament organisers to decide, and we shouldn't give him flack for making a decision like this.

Just busy playing better games nowadays friend.  :)

What you said is essentially the crux of it, if the people who pay to host the servers and are putting their time into running the tournament want to do it a certain way then that's their prerogative. I don't necessarily agree with the direction this particular tournament will take but I recognize that it is completely up to them.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Captain Falcon on November 09, 2017, 03:30:21 pm
This is obviously a very Trump based config tailored to the weaker North American players. It would be better to leave this tournament North American based instead of trying to force them to make it international.

We should leave the serious international configs and tournaments to more experienced developers such as Sir.

As Danne touched on, it's very easy for a competent tournament administrator to allocate one neutral server that's as fair as possible for both teams to play on and if one is not available then revert to a home/away match. All it takes is some basic geographical knowledge outside of North America as demonstrated by Dragon in the EQ Cup.

(Historically NV ate America for breakfast anyway~)
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Griz on November 09, 2017, 08:21:25 pm
Ok so, this is what the intentions are for upcoming tournaments and how we can structure an actual international community; of course if the represented nation or region is willing to participate, and if they have an actual structured community instead of just random teams, right now as it stands the idea is we all set up or we you could just merge with E-freak, and make our own national community hub via steam and discord, go with a certain list of admins to represent the region and based on that community raise money to chip into an actual prize pool.

The only reason the prize pool was so high during kissme's tournament hosting wasn't due to direct sponsorship of a monolith gaming industry supplier, it was due to money gained through free will donations to see a large prize pool tournament hosted in l4d2, and it produced an amazing display of hyper aggressive skill based type of players from NA/EU scene.

So the problem we have right now is, we're trying to setup an actual community that works together to provide content, meaning right now there are only 2 regions that are keeping the pulse of this game alive by funding the servers and community for future tournaments, and they are NA/EU based, what I'm saying is if there is no funding from other regions then why should they get the money? or why should they get a say so? (if they do win the tournament of course.) It's a constant bleed from the wallets and money of those who've invested just to keep it going from those two regions alone, however if other nations invest, then the burden is split into multiple regions then there is less of a hassle and the load or or less evenly distributed, similar to how weights and balances operate.

The future of l4d2 for international tournaments relies on other communities in RU,AU,JP. It's just time for you guys to step up and work, or try to work with it if you want a say so. At least so we can get an understanding or a clear vision for a structured community, otherwise it just becomes parasitic for lack of a better term; don't jump at me for putting it like that please. But you can see where I'm coming from I hope.


Aside from what I posted above, I have no idea why Danne is a listed outcast. Out of anything that huge hackusation thing was a boost on that ego of his, it's just his skill being demonstrated by gained knowledge and an investment of quite a bit of his time and determination, I used to hackuse players from team nv- because they had better aim than me and understood that you could sometimes see shadows of SI come through walls in some areas of this broken game. It's just summed up in the word empiricism.

As for this Captain Falcon guy, I just have no idea what he's on about. It's like he's actually mirroring to himself his political dissatisfaction and pride of country, and yet he's acting like he's telling us (WHAT IS); (Sarcastic tone) - thank god for him, he's an internet wizard, I just wouldn't ever be able to live my life and strive to be someone better everyday without his truthful and meaningful insights.

I just don't get it why even say anything at all? It's hardly applicable or rational to context, It's like saying "I like peanut butter, can you roller skate? what's the price of beef in China? *Sigh*, at least try to be consistent in thought if you're going to make a post. The one thing he has right is, Sir is a real wit and does a good job in his work for CFGs, oh and also Nv- was a great team.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: World of Noise on November 09, 2017, 08:25:21 pm
I feel like the middle ground to the international tournament would be a Regional type of qualifier prior to the finals but that would require a large sign up, imo.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Captain Falcon on November 09, 2017, 09:37:11 pm
@Grizz Are you trying to say there are no other servers outside of NA/EU? From the initial postings it was said the new CFG would be E freak exclusive anyway.

In any case, it's always been relatively simple and cheap to quickly create a server as needed especially if it's only for the duration of a tournament. Most people would be happy to pay for it. I'd do it if we didn't have one up already @_@

Obviously if a region doesn't have their own server then they will be forced to play on the next closest available server or play one neutral game server if possible.

Also I'm not sure how many people enter tournaments to win money nowadays. With the exception of a few, most prize pools will allow each member of your team to buy a pizza.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Artifacial on November 09, 2017, 10:13:06 pm
The future of l4d2 for international tournaments relies on other communities in RU,AU,JP. It's just time for you guys to step up and work, or try to work with it if you want a say so. At least so we can get an understanding or a clear vision for a structured community, otherwise it just becomes parasitic for lack of a better term; don't jump at me for putting it like that please. But you can see where I'm coming from I hope.

I'm not 100% sure what you're getting at here. Are you asking for other communities to invest in eFreak, or invest in international tournament prize pools? The reason you won't see Asian communities invest in EU/NA groups/servers is because we maintain our own - why do we need to donate to a foreign group to manage our own servers? If you're asking for contributions to a prize pool for an international tournament, then put out a call for donations. You highlighted KissMe's tournament as an example with a high prize pool. I think from memory approx $200 of that prize pool came from donations from the AU region (because it was an international tournament, and thus we donated).

If this is an NA/EU only tournament, then fine - as Danne mentioned that's your prerogative. You're the one putting time in it, and kudos for that. I certainly don't have time to run a tournament and deal with the l4d community. However, as Captain Falcon alluded to in his post, Dragon/Kissme ran (at least in my eyes) successful international tournaments by engaging the international community.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on November 09, 2017, 10:31:08 pm
Won's proposition is actually a pretty damn good middle ground.

Regional "qualifiers" where the top team from each region comes out to play in the playoffs. Then we have the home / away system for playoffs where the #1 team from each region compete against each other.

If say Australia has only one team signed up, then so be it, they don't play a match until the playoffs.

It's a win / win for everyone, since it's fair, and teams not dedicated enough to be willing to play home / away high ping games aren't likely to get to the top anyway. Even if they do get to that #1 spot, they can always decide to bail out on the international playoffs and consider themselves #1 of the region. Who cares, what matters is that nobody will be forced to play international games just to compete in the tournament.

By the way, I don't really get why you would want to make promod exclusive to eFreak, it doesn't make any sense to me.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Captain Falcon on November 09, 2017, 10:38:16 pm
Dragon had regional qualifiers in the EQ cup and that tournament ran smoothly. As some regions have more teams than others, you can simply give the larger regions more slots to qualify based on how many teams signed up.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on November 10, 2017, 08:18:12 am
Grizz,

Factionalising competitive l4d at this point is suicide for the community. Aus and Asia have adequately structured groups with many well organised servers with plenty of fair admins. It's 2017, why even play a match or scrim if you know your opposition is going to lose because you forced them to play with 250ms? I can understand a team doing that in an active community, however it doesn't make much sense for people to be doing it when there is >20 "teams". Some people in the US community will legitimately refuse to play on west coast in a scrim. What Arti said was spot on. Could you explain in absolute specifics what your motives are behind making the config 'exclusive' to efreak? I think that is the biggest oversight of all.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Griz on November 10, 2017, 11:32:00 am
Hey whatsup Friday, um so the context for the word (exclusive) it just means a cfg meant to accommodate to or is being designed for teams, it's not in context to a super secret tree house community or club, it's just taking forever for Jacob to work on it I guess and polish it up.

Hi Arti, I like you guys from AU I remember playing against you guys in the CCT2 international. We almost lost to you guys on diescraper I think, it was the one where we had Hib on our team at the time. It was really intense and we almost got knocked out of the cup. So let me clarify this, so in theory right now we're not asking to merge directly with E-freak although it might not be a bad idea for the future. Um, I'm just talking about a prizepool in total through donation, it doesn't even have to be that much from each of us to make something big, and I don't want to throw anyone under the buss here. I was just making it clear we need an actual organized structure for donations and hosting. That's all I'm aiming at right now, and I want other to get on board with it. It's just theory crafting right now, hopefully it can be manifested in time, if not oh well. At least we can say for once we tried.

Hi World of noise, um regional qualifiers might not be such a good idea for the now anyway. L4d2 I think was made up of international players who were in their highschool days or early college days just to be alpha in a game, most of those teams and players are gone because IRL demands and responsibilities take away from time to play, so they're more or less adults now and we don't have enough skilled players to pick up the community to that extent for regional qualifiers, so let's just stick with reality and stay with it for now, but it's not a bad idea at all.

As for Falcon, I don't get the posts you make on political narratives. I don't follow politics, they're a waste of my thoughts and time, I have serious responsibilities to attend to and I'll allow the democrats and republicans to their own affairs. If I need to checkup on politics at least I have Ben Shapiro as an unbiased logical and comparative for good and evil done among them. If you have questions about the tournament I don't need to reply to them, because they're pretty much in line to what Arti asked. Ok? bye.

Oh P.S. Jay's idea about throwing the baby out with the bath water is probably a bit of a cop out, not saying he's stupid or that he has bad ideas and his points are invalid because they are valid, it's just the fact of not addressing a counter effect or considering consequence to actions taken, for example it'll effect other people negatively.

Which in short centering teams to 2 regions NA/EU is practical self interest and well being, that's not a good way to handling a problem. It's just a way to as I said "throwing the baby out with the bath water". So we just need a better way to force teams to play at a deadline for the cups, instead of just saying in short, (I'll deal with a problem or equation by just removing half of the numbers tied to it.) That line of reasoning is evading a problem and shortening the issue without thinking how to fix it, so my fix is we should aim to set a forced deadline which players would have to schedule around or forfeit to evade last second ringers.

Meaning a huge forewarning or set time which is inbetween day/night of the two for the week is probably our given solution, obviously it's selfish to just remove or just make them play 1 game on a server with high ping, we would be practically banning 2 nations from competing and like I said, it's not at all wise because it doesn't address the counter effects of the choice to just ignore the faults of an equation or problem needed to be solved. It just becomes a self inflicted wound which none of us on this thread want.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: fig newtons on November 10, 2017, 07:29:30 pm
Could you explain in absolute specifics what your motives are behind making the config 'exclusive' to efreak? I think that is the biggest oversight of all.
I don't think you answered this question. Why isn't the config being published so other servers can have it? Is it just that it's undone?
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on November 10, 2017, 11:03:59 pm
Hey whatsup Friday, um so the context for the word (exclusive) it just means a cfg meant to accommodate to or is being designed for teams, it's not in context to a super secret tree house community or club, it's just taking forever for Jacob to work on it I guess and polish it up.

Could you use proper english and just answer the question instead of using using cryptic language to tip toe around it, thanks.
The only thing one can infer from this is that the config won't be made public until its finished, which is all well and good, just not sure why you can't just say that in two or three words..

Meaning a huge forewarning or set time which is inbetween day/night of the two for the week is probably our given solution, obviously it's selfish to just remove or just make them play 1 game on a server with high ping, we would be practically banning 2 nations from competing and like I said, it's not at all wise because it doesn't address the counter effects of the choice to just ignore the faults of an equation or problem needed to be solved. It just becomes a self inflicted wound which none of us on this thread want.

What on earth does this gibberish mean
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Griz on November 11, 2017, 03:09:06 pm
Friday, I'm sorry for being vague on my answers although they are about as honest to God as I can make them. There's no clear direction set for anything because I don't have the time for handling the logistics and organizing a community, meaning I don't exactly have much knowledge for a timeline given for the release of a CFG. Also my work/school conditions right now leave me always exhausted and never well rested. So if that's an excuse I may use, then I hope you can sympathize with, and I hope you understand where I'm coming from when making these posts.

There's no real motive as I said, I'm not concealing or trying to keep anything from you. It's just there's no real organized form pushing this CFG to be in the hands of anyone else right now. That's all it really is, nothing more nothing else. Best answer I can give is go talk to Jacob.

(As for the context of my previous post) -
"Meaning a huge forewarning or set time which is inbetween day/night of the two for the week is probably our given solution, obviously it's selfish to just remove or just make them play 1 game on a server with high ping, we would be practically banning 2 nations from competing and like I said, it's not at all wise because it doesn't address the counter effects of the choice to just ignore the faults of an equation or problem needed to be solved. It just becomes a self inflicted wound which none of us on this thread want."

That was related to Jay's idea of just forcing teams from Asia or AU to just play 1 game on a U.S./E.U. server without having the players from Asia/AU having a say so. So I was referring to a different idea to fix the problem we have with international scheduling, and it was to have teams forced to play at a time which would be reasonable for the two teams, just for certain regions to play 2 games on a day they would put aside to play. As in prior to the tournament even starting, it would just be understood that those types of games would be needed to play around predetermined timeline, removing the scheduling between the two teams and forcing them to play at the mandatory time.

Is that better? I hope it was at least a bit more clear.  ;D
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Bravo on November 13, 2017, 10:13:26 am
> Doesn't have time for politics
> writes 100x more cryptic messages than most politicians

I'm ready to get banned again. Be gentle. I also like wons idea.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: hib on November 13, 2017, 02:38:45 pm
can I get a TL:DR version of these posts... my ADHD is kicking in... anyone?
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Bravo on November 13, 2017, 05:42:23 pm
can I get a TL:DR version of these posts... my ADHD is kicking in... anyone?

grizz make pro l4d2 config
somethin somethin l4d2 tournament
NA hate foreigners, we want build the walll!
people rebell against wall, they want equality for all!
big bear say, no! NA is master race!
people say game is dead, you cannot discriminate!
the bear says he is busy with school and jesus, he haz the no time
won say regional qualifiers somethin somethin,..
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Adam on November 13, 2017, 06:12:29 pm
The m2s aren't consistent. Sometimes a shotgun point blank m2 a hunter in the air more often than it should happen. Yeah accidental m2's happened in configs like acemod but not this often. The hunter getting "glued" to the ground happens alot where you don't get any stumble animation like you should when you get m2ed on the ground. You just kinda stay in your crouched position and its hard to tell when you're getting up Imo remove m2s or enable them completely with no shitty changes and little rules like "only uzi can m2" this middle ground we have is borderline dog cheeks. It's either m2s need to be REMOVED or added back in unchanged with this uzi m2 and hunter gluing shit. I know Jacob probably doesn't have much time or what not so its no big deal..But this needs to be resolved before the tournament.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on November 13, 2017, 06:23:45 pm
The m2s aren't consistent. Sometimes a shotgun point blank m2 a hunter in the air more often than it should happen. Yeah accidental m2's happened in configs like acemod but not this often. The hunter getting "glued" to the ground happens alot where you don't get any stumble animation like you should when you get m2ed on the ground. You just kinda stay in your crouched position and its hard to tell when you're getting up Imo remove m2s or enable them completely with no shitty changes and little rules like "only uzi can m2" this middle ground we have is borderline dog cheeks. It's either m2s need to be REMOVED or added back in unchanged with this uzi m2 and hunter gluing shit. I know Jacob probably doesn't have much time or what not so its no big deal..But this needs to be resolved before the tournament.


it almost seems like the excess of threads about this in 2014 actually meant something.....
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/256/183/9d5.png)
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Adam on November 13, 2017, 08:03:42 pm
I mean like i said before I'm not opposed to either sides of the argument. But you cant be on the fence for m2s its just buggy af..and i don't see it being a thing you can just fix in a day granted i don't know the first thing about making a config.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Moscow on November 17, 2017, 10:57:44 pm
Whatever blocks hunters from rolling when shoved off a surv is broken/missing in the new promod. Dunno if it was already mentioned.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: iamSun on November 21, 2017, 04:19:36 am
Tournament cancelled? Where are sign-ups?
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on November 21, 2017, 06:44:04 am
Waiting for 3 things. We've decided to run it off eFPS, so we're waiting to talk to Dallas about that, and also there are more servers coming. We wanted them to be up for 1st week of matches. The third thing is the config, and I think that is finally ready including !team mode.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Dusty on November 21, 2017, 02:36:56 pm
So is this going to be a tournament of what the community wants or what you want? Because this mod is a buggy piece of shit. Zero polish and terrible mechanics, It's like old promod with a fucking sticker over the top.




Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on November 21, 2017, 04:10:16 pm
So is this going to be a tournament of what the community wants or what you want? Because this mod is a buggy piece of shit. Zero polish and terrible mechanics, It's like old promod with a fucking sticker over the top.

haha /thread
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Bravo on November 21, 2017, 04:17:01 pm
So is this going to be a tournament of what the community wants or what you want? Because this mod is a buggy piece of shit. Zero polish and terrible mechanics, It's like old promod with a fucking sticker over the top.

Why u remoof me?
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on November 21, 2017, 07:25:15 pm
I am sorry if you have been mislead Dusty, but as I have said from the beginning, this is going to be a config of what grizz wants.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Jacob on November 22, 2017, 12:52:54 am
So is this going to be a tournament of what the community wants or what you want? Because this mod is a buggy piece of shit. Zero polish and terrible mechanics, It's like old promod with a fucking sticker over the top.

Can I get a list of these bugs? Can you explain what you mean by zero polish? Which mechanics in specific do you disagree with? While I agree it's similar to old pro mod (as that was the intention), the changes I've made I'd consider to be quite a bit more than just a sticker over the top.

It definitely had bugs while we were working on it, but that's why I had it labeled as "0.x", it wasn't intended to be a finished product just something for people to play on if they wanted to and give feedback while we worked on it.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Dusty on November 22, 2017, 02:51:36 am
Quote
Can I get a list of these bugs? Can you explain what you mean by zero polish? Which mechanics in specific do you disagree with? While I agree it's similar to old pro mod (as that was the intention), the changes I've made I'd consider to be quite a bit more than just a sticker over the top.

Sure, I'll make a list here       

List number 1: Mechanics that are BROKEN. (Not just a difference of opinion)

1.    Hunters getting stuck in the ground from M2's

2.    Hunters randomly getting pounce resets when pouncing off the ground.

3.    The M2 Plugin that is supposed to only allow uzi's to M2 seems extremely buggy, shotguns can sometimes m2 air hunters, other pounces seem to go straight through M2's when you have uzi.

4..   Full levels are complete luck, sometimes It's impossible to full level a charger because of how the rays of melees interaction with charger hitbox, but also promod seems to have something that is making it happen MUCH more often (second part maybe placebo)

5.    If you melee a tank and get punched, your gun flies out of your hands, Is unable to be picked up and still counts as a weapon held until you get another primary weapon pick-up, So you can't pick up an uzi if you had 3 uzis. So unless you find a shotgun spawn, have fun running around with only a secondary weapon.

6.    Some of the bugs with chargers like leveling it, and taking 10 damage and getting a get-up animation still. Or randomly getting the long get-up animation.

7.    Not being able to jump or punch for a while after spawning as tank.

   

List Number 2: Mechanics that I believe are bad/wrong or have no place in the game.

1.   Jumprocks... Holy moly I don't even want to get started because I'll fucking begin a never-ending rant. But these are re-introduced and people are already jumprocking scripting their fucking asses off. For one, jumprocks are a bug, and an overpowered one at that. Secondly, there is just zero way to catch these people scripting, I know for a fact some people who are scripting, but even if I said their names, it would just be a witch-hunt and nothing would come of it. So why allow this overpowered bug? It's going to be scripted and abused, It makes bad tanks good because they can use AHK or a keyboard macro. If you succeeded in making the serverside or button that would allow you to jumprock on a single press, or just allowed scripts to do it, it would be LESS of a problem, but in my opinion still an overpowered bug.

2.    Spit damage... I'm not sure EXACTLY what values promod is using for spit damage but I just think it's way too fucking high, the game basically is who can get more spitter+cap gangbangs per map, there is 0 incentive to go for multicaps if you can just pull a guy into a charge spit, it's 100% the better play. Because a hunter or smoker or jockey has to land for what, 15 seconds to do equivalent damage to a charge spit, so why bother trying it's not likely or as easy as pulling a guy then charge spitting. I understand that some people might think zonemod's spit damage was too low, but I seen it as fine, If something like a charge spit or hunt spit lands, the majority of the damage should be what the charger or hunter gets for how long they have someone capped, and spit is just a bit of additive damage, because spitter is in essence, a skillless S.I. You rely on your teammates cappers to land. So it shouldn't do the majority of your damage IMO. If you know anything about the game or have advanced knowledge, you'd know that spit does SO MUCH DAMAGE. That it is better to LEAVE YOUR TEAMMATE CAPPED BY A CHARGER so that when he finishes his get-up the spit will have ended. How is that rewarding or smart gameplay?

3.    Full levels... Just random as fuck, I know I put it in broken mechanics but its also just something I'm so against. There is no skill in full leveling charges, and this is coming from someone who spent 10's of hours sitting in listen servers practicing and doing full level because scavenge player LUL.

4.    The "competitive/team" settings of promod... I don't really know what other people think, but being able to vote your tank spawn sounds like the most boring scrim/match of l4d2 ever. You'd just always vote the hardest/impossible tank spawns for the map. Many maps almost become unplayable because some tank spawns are just so fundamentally broken.

5.    Instant damage smoker tongue... If you are able to self clear yourself or a teammate instant clears you, you shouldn't take damage from a smoker IMO.

6.    Melee Damage on tank... I'm not sure what the values are, but I feel like melee is just way too fucking powerful on tank again, Most of the time it's not even worth reloading your gun if you have any chance to just burger a tank.

7.    Friendly Fire Damage... I Just think that being able to shoot someone with a shotgun for 20 damage is silly, it's too fucking much, that's like emptying half an uzi clip into a teammate.


It's 3AM here so I'm sure I will think of more things to add and edit this list to include them. Also getting some values like the spit damage in promod and damage value from melees on tank would be insightful and help me clear up ambiguity in my list. I'd also like to hear peoples thought on my list and if I am someone who stands alone on my thoughts, or If people think that my thoughts are agreeable.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on November 22, 2017, 07:18:27 am
I agree, hunters are a buggy mess in promod. I think you should perhaps take a good look at them Jacob.

As I've said earlier, jumprock scripts are and always will be a thing, I also agree.

I disagree with nerfing spitter damage, I would instead opt for removing it entirely if people don't like playing with a spitter that can actually do something.

I don't know if friendly damage is 20 for shotgun meatshots (I think it's 10?) but that didn't bother me, I just had to be more careful.

But overall everyone playing the game regularly is well aware that promod has a few bugs. Sir has seen and fixed a few of these issues in his own configs, you don't necessarely have to code something that's already been done before so maybe talk to him or something.

I also feel, like many other people, that you should've maybe started where zonemod left off and just put uzis / spitters back to promod values + other changes you would want. Basically you want to make survivors harder to play, but the features you've implemented back to accomplish this are well known broken / abusable mechanics. I would argue that overall, despite the extra bugs, the harder survivor gameplay / improved SI ability made the game feel more alive, but maybe there's a better way to accomplish this.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Dusty on November 22, 2017, 07:55:18 am
Quote
I disagree with nerfing spitter damage, I would instead opt for removing it entirely if people don't like playing with a spitter that can actually do something.

I think you have this backwards, in things like zonemod the spitter does do something. But in promod the spitter does and IS everything.
ex zonemod: Charger lands, 10 damage cleared quickly, spit does 10 damage.
ex promod: Charger lands, 10 damage cleared quickly, spit does 40 damage.

In promod there is no incentive to go for multicaps really because it's all based around landing charge spits. The spitter damage should be an addition of damage, not all of the damage.

Even when zonemod spitter was at it's weakest, and most played point I believe, a spit puddle did 2 damage a tick for a total of 40 damage. Since then when noone has been playing it I'm pretty sure, it was buffed to be 3 then 4 damage per tick alternating for a total of 70 damage per spit. Not sure what promod is using or if it's vanilla spit, but I'd like to hear and know.

I mean the game is more fun with spitter, but just not when the damage is oppressive IMO.

Quote
I don't know if friendly damage is 20 for shotgun meatshots (I think it's 10?) but that didn't bother me, I just had to be more careful.

It's definitely 20, and yeah it's nothing gamebreaking but I think it still exists in promod where someone can be inside your model and you can FF each other. And even if it didn't I just think it's way too much, even being reduced back to 6 or maybe 10 would be better.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: hib on November 22, 2017, 11:35:31 am
Quad caps are okay, but really don't deal a lot of damage especially how easily hunters die in this config. Honestly, the game was alot better and fun in promod 3.2~ era.

Dusty, I understand some of the main points you have but keep in mind, the game is not being catered to your liking. The self clear on smokers shouldn't really be a thing, especially with the lotted time you have. You should be given half the time to self-clear, instead of the 5 seconds or whatever gap you have to shoot before you become paralyzed. Either that or add more recoil to the survivor while getting pulled.

LET ME BECOME A DUSTY FOR A LITTLE BIT....
Just grant people the ability to m2, shotgun and uzi. Give only 1 m2, so that you cannot spam it and get away with it. Give hunters a bit more hp, so that they don't instantly die. Skeeting is way too easy now, i see people with "not so good" aim being able to kill hunters easily. Jump rocks are cool but with the scripting occuring, and ability to know who's scripting it, it's removal seems more appropriate (it sucks and sad that people have to resort to scripting to be able to do this maneuver, I'm sure bravo would agree).

For the spitter, IF POSSIBLE, make the spread of the spit more larger while making the ticks of damage less, so that it balances out (i guess). Allow jockeys to do DPs. Give tank LOS ability like the old promod/EQ versions. Tanks that are really good at maintaining LOS should be rewarded. Also, the infected team should be rewarded to play a longer tank, if they work together and land rocks.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: yams on November 22, 2017, 12:31:44 pm
3.    Full levels... Just random as fuck, I know I put it in broken mechanics but its also just something I'm so against. There is no skill in full leveling charges, and this is coming from someone who spent 10's of hours sitting in listen servers practicing and doing full level because scavenge player LUL.

5.    Instant damage smoker tongue... If you are able to self clear yourself or a teammate instant clears you, you shouldn't take damage from a smoker IMO.

6.    Melee Damage on tank... I'm not sure what the values are, but I feel like melee is just way too fucking powerful on tank again, Most of the time it's not even worth reloading your gun if you have any chance to just burger a tank.

7.    Friendly Fire Damage... I Just think that being able to shoot someone with a shotgun for 20 damage is silly, it's too fucking much, that's like emptying half an uzi clip into a teammate.


(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/982/post-19715-Brent-Rambo-gif-thumbs-up-imgu-L3yP.gif)
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Jacob on November 22, 2017, 02:19:05 pm
lists

Hunter getting stuck should be fixed, I switched to removing all deadstops using the same plugin as other configs. I have watched a lot of games and tested it myself pretty extensively and haven't seen the gun drop bug yet, but in case that is a rare thing I can remove that plugin. Full levels aren't a bug. Bugs 2 6 and 7 that you listed though I'll look into.

I don't really have any opinion on most the balance stuff, for the most part I've just been putting in the values people tell me to cuz I considered myself pretty distant from the game and what people liked. I'm just making an updated pro mod for a tourney.

That being said:
1- Jump rocks, I'll talk to grizz and co.
2- Spit damage is set to 3 dmg per tick for 20 ticks for a max of 60. Zonemod alternates between 2 and 3 damage ticks for the same duration. I personally don't think spit is too crazy in the current version, I've been tweaking god frames and spit duration and I think it feels okay, on average you should only be taking about 5 more damage per spit than in zonemod. (If you get hit by 10 ticks or half the spit duration, that would be 25 damage on zonemod and 30 on pro mod) It's only really punishing if you get horded and your team doesn't clear you.
3- Don't really have any opinion, can pass it along.
4- I agree with your concerns, which is why I limited each team to 2 moves per campaign, and made it so tank cant spawn super early or super late. The hope is there will be some strategy to when you use your tank moves. Do you want to use it on map 1 to try to get an early lead, or save it for a later map? I think you should try playing on it in a scrim before judging it because I want feedback on that feature I just need feedback based on experience not predictions.
5- I just copied zonemods smoker settings, but if they don't have the instant smoker damage I can remove that.
6- Right now melee damage is 270 per swing (vanilla 300, zonemod 240), I thought that would be fine in conjunction with the plugin that forces you to switch to your gun when you get punched but if I'm gunna remove that plugin anyways I can drop it to 240.
7- I'll look into friendly fire damage.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on November 22, 2017, 09:50:02 pm
What Grizz's original post stated:
1. PM:e is meant to challenge survivors "directly", ie stronger SI, decrease "hold W" mentality, emphasis on team cohesion and less solo fragging
2. PM:e is meant to make "positioning" more important, ie baiting, temp health damage sponges, map dynamics etc

How the config is not achieveing these goals:
1.-2. Quad-caps aren't incentivising survivor positioning or cohesion at all, hunters get skeeted 70% of the time in pugs and even more in scrims. Being able to eliminate 2 SI instantly with SG does not incentivise positioning (baiting), it favours run and gun. If you want to stop 'run and gun' survivors you need to reward players for baiting and punish players for not stopping when the SI are ready to attack. IMO Zonemod 1.7 is already leaning in that direction since spawn rotation is now 100% reproducible, meaning Si can get the optimal hit for a given position in the map. If you reward SI spawn rotation with more damage than just throwing your SI in asap, you'll actually give the survivors a reason to bait. Having 2 hunters doesn't reward smart SI play in the slightest, in fact it actually benefits teams who throw their hits at the survivors regardless of map positioning. Which results in run and gun survivor play.

Another reason why this config is failing to incentivise baiting is that it still has not addressed the issue of melee weapons- Being able to full level a charger is not difficult and often times can occur unintentionally. Why reward survivors for something that requires little to no aim or skill? On top of that, being able to eliminate another SI instantly does the exact opposite of incentivise baiting. Levelling a full hp charger does not encourage positioning, it favours individual skill and run and gun play. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is too many melee weapons for the survivors in pm:e and in zonemod. Melee weapons are probably the number 1 aspect of survivors that allows teams to run through a map unscathed. No SI should be able to be killed with one hit from a melee at full health: If the SI are that close to survivors and have full health why are they being rewarded for not using their primary? The purpose of baiting is to disrupt SI spawns and get as much damage on them from a distance. Being able to kill them full health at point-blank range doesn't encourage that.

Spitters should be useful for SI but overall being able to land a synchronise attack should be more important that smoker>charge>spit. SI should be rewarded for getting the most optimal spawns for a location instead of simply landing the same attack every time. The spawn rotation in ZM1.7 fixes the issue and should definitely be apart of pm (unless it already is idk). Self-clear shouldn't exist IMO although I think a better buff for smoker would be to disable tongue breaking, that way having a smoker in certain locations might actually make baiting a hit worth it. It is worth considering buffing SI's abilities instead of their damage values.

For the spitter, IF POSSIBLE, make the spread of the spit more larger while making the ticks of damage less, so that it balances out (i guess).
Why? Have players suddenly started missing spits? Not exactly topical. Alternating spit damage is a good compromise since the damage accumulation over time isn't linear anymore. Survivors should be rewarded for clearing quickly and punished for clearing slowly. The counter effect should be that spitters get rewarded for landing their spit asap on a capped survivor or potentially before the cap lands, making it easier to land the spit seems irrelevant when the only time SI would be benefited is when the survivors are in a small area.

tldr config hasn't made baiting as important as it ought to be if that is the inclination Grizz has theorised just my opinion
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on November 23, 2017, 03:11:34 pm
https://clips.twitch.tv/CharmingAbrasiveGiraffeNinjaGrumpy

m2 on a hunter in version 1.0 from a sg player
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on November 23, 2017, 03:16:59 pm
https://clips.twitch.tv/CharmingAbrasiveGiraffeNinjaGrumpy


M2's aren't fixed in version 1..
Infested Soul Killed Lil Plump
 
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Fridays on November 23, 2017, 03:20:10 pm
actual after looking at it you're right about that woops
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Jacob on November 23, 2017, 06:47:45 pm
I'm working on a big update that will hopefully address most of the concerns people have brought up. I might break it into 2 updates so I can get some of the improvements out earlier, but all of it should be done within the next few days.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: hib on November 25, 2017, 11:24:59 pm
give me double jockeys, double chargers, and double smokers FUCK IT

make it so that if you have a quad capper, it will random from the 4 cappers (hunter, charger, jockey, smoker).

so instead of getting the ability of a second hunter, you can get a second other capper as well.

FUCK IT!
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Bravo on November 26, 2017, 01:53:16 pm
give me double jockeys, double chargers, and double smokers FUCK IT

make it so that if you have a quad capper, it will random from the 4 cappers (hunter, charger, jockey, smoker).

so instead of getting the ability of a second hunter, you can get a second other capper as well.

FUCK IT!

If I play a pug and I see two smokers coming for me I will hunt jacob down.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Sam on November 27, 2017, 09:33:07 pm
jacob making l4d2 great again
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Jacob on November 27, 2017, 11:38:53 pm
jacob making l4d2 great again

jacob breaking l4d2. great, again? xD
on a srs note the update has taken longer than expected, should hopefully have a pretty big update out in the next couple days tho.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Dyl Dough on December 01, 2017, 08:41:35 am
Friday I bet if we got in a server and tried 10 times you could maybe full level 1 charger. Especially when there's horde and other SI everywhere. Most people can't do it in the moment. They just get mad about being leveled cuz they're bad with chargers and come from obvious places and get rekt.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Jacob on December 04, 2017, 04:42:29 am
Hey guys, deli was busy for a few days so couldn't update before now but just put out a decent sized update that should hopefully help with a lot of the things you guys brought up. Gunna be putting out 1 more update in a few days, so if you see anything missing from this update let me know so I can make sure it's included in the next one.

PME 1.1:
- Increased godframes vs friendly fire by 0.8 seconds.
- Increased godframes vs commons by 0.6 seconds.
- Increased godframes vs spit by 0.1 seconds.
- Increased charger godframes by 0.1 seconds.
- Removed jockey godframes (was previously 0.1 seconds).
- Reduced melee weapon damage vs tank to 240 per swing.
- Fixed tank being unable to jump or attack for a short period after spawning.
- Fixed hunters sometimes getting an instant repounce after being shoved off a survivor.
- In team mode when the opponent moves the tank spawn, survivors can now see the new %.
- Removed plugin which forced survivors to switch to their gun if they got punched by tank while they had a melee weapon out.
- Prevented some instances of friendly fire damage and capped shotgun FF max damage.
- Fixed tank rocks sometimes getting stuck on common infected or incapped survivors.
- Smoked survivors no longer collide with common infected.
- Updated confoglcompmod to better support team mode features.
- Witch can no longer stumble other SI.
- Doubled charger slam damage vs incapped survivors.
- Removed full levels.
- Disabled jump rocks.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on December 04, 2017, 06:36:31 am
PME 1.1:
- Disabled jump rocks.

(https://i2.wp.com/gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Jerry-Seinfeld-No-Thanks-and-Leave.gif?ssl=1)
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Dusty on December 04, 2017, 08:19:51 am
Positive/Unknowns PME 1.1:
- Increased godframes vs friendly fire by 0.8 seconds.(Numbers changes, hard to evaluate something you cant really feel unless you play)
- Increased godframes vs spit by 0.1 seconds. (See #1)
- Increased charger godframes by 0.1 seconds.(See #1)
- Removed jockey godframes (was previously 0.1 seconds).(See #1)
- Reduced melee weapon damage vs tank to 240 per swing.(Fantastic)
- Fixed tank being unable to jump or attack for a short period after spawning.(Wonderful)
- Fixed hunters sometimes getting an instant repounce after being shoved off a survivor.(Awesome)
- In team mode when the opponent moves the tank spawn, survivors can now see the new %.(Not a fan of team mode. But +rep bugfix)
- Removed plugin which forced survivors to switch to their gun if they got punched by tank while they had a melee weapon out.(Does this mean you will be able to melee tank again after punches in promod til something is figured out?)
- Prevented some instances of friendly fire damage and capped shotgun FF max damage.(Great)
- Fixed tank rocks sometimes getting stuck on common infected or incapped survivors.(Booya)
- Smoked survivors no longer collide with common infected.(Phenomenal)
- Updated confoglcompmod to better support team mode features.(Things that go above my knowledge +rep)
- Witch can no longer stumble other SI.(I'd be curious to see how this works, not sure how to feel about it)
- Removed full levels.(Spectacular)
- Disabled jump rocks.(Remarkable)


- Increased godframes vs commons by 0.6 seconds. (Is this referring to getting hit by common when getting up from hunter or charger? I feel like it wasn't a bad thing, just meant your teammates had to clear you from SI and common.)
- Doubled charger slam damage vs incapped survivors.(I'm extremely scared this could be OP. would have to play with it a bit.)

No word on the hunters randomly getting stuck, with and without being M2'd. And their pounces randomly resetting.
No word on the M2 plugin and it's fixes or removal so far.
I think smoker tongue should do first tick as vanilla values and quick ticks after still.

Is this mod going to be publicized or is it meant to stay this privatized exclusive crap? Not to point fingers or be rude to anyone as I don't know the exact ideology behind it, but it seems worse for the community.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Jacob on December 04, 2017, 06:18:09 pm
- Increased godframes vs commons by 0.6 seconds. (Is this referring to getting hit by common when getting up from hunter or charger? I feel like it wasn't a bad thing, just meant your teammates had to clear you from SI and common.)
Yea that's during getup animations, other configs have had that value set to 0.6 and pro mod was at 0.0, so I decided to change it just to have less random disparity between configs. You should still take common damage while getting up since get up animations are 2+ seconds.


Quote
- Doubled charger slam damage vs incapped survivors.(I'm extremely scared this could be OP. would have to play with it a bit.)
Again this is a change that was already standard in other configs, it will take about 10 seconds for charger to kill someone once they are incapped (assuming no other damage like spit / boom)


Quote
No word on the hunters randomly getting stuck, with and without being M2'd. And their pounces randomly resetting.
No word on the M2 plugin and it's fixes or removal so far.
These should have been fixed in 1.0 but just to be safe I had deli recompile the plugins from sirs / visors github so there shouldn't be any issues here. We removed the "1 m2 for smg" plugin in 1.0 as well. If you see this happen on 1.1 let me know.


Quote
I think smoker tongue should do first tick as vanilla values and quick ticks after still.
I'm making this change in 1.2, I wanted to get 1.1 out asap.


Quote
Is this mod going to be publicized or is it meant to stay this privatized exclusive crap? Not to point fingers or be rude to anyone as I don't know the exact ideology behind it, but it seems worse for the community.
I never intended to come back to make a "new pro mod", I was contacted by jay + grizz + the people from efreak to make a new config for their servers. I even named it "new mod" initially, and they later changed it to it's current title. They gave me a bit of money in exchange for making the mod + giving it to them, so if it were to go public they would have to be the ones to release it because I feel that I've essentially "sold the rights" to it if that makes sense. If I could go back in time I'd probably have pushed harder for it to be publicly distributed.


Also @jay I'm trying to look into ways that I can make the auto jump rock work still, or to prevent people from scripting it but in the mean time I felt it was necessary to remove it since it was becoming a very controversial point of the config.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: hib on December 04, 2017, 11:23:05 pm
Great job Jacob!
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Luckylock on December 05, 2017, 11:06:41 am
This has happened a bit too much.. so I'm just going to say it. It's been irking me.

1) Make a server to try and play the trendy Promod
2) Realise it doesn't have the "latest" Promod because it's "EXCLUSIERJJVE"
3) Be confused and dissapointed as to why this is the case
4) We're gonna play Zonemod then

Jacob, your work looks inteteresting and people are excited to try it out but you're making using your config so much more of a hassle than it needs to be. "If we want to play Promod we HAVE to use this one guy's servers... "

Speaking to Jay / Grizz dax / MK since I know you two are behind the exclusivity:
I don't know what the intent is behind it? Something tells me it's something not healthy at all, and it has to do with control / power. You do what you want at the end of the day, but if you expect people to be forced on your server indefinetly to satisfy your insecurities you're (probably, hopefully) wrong.

I don't even play much anymore so I don't know why this still annoys me, it's just a shame to see your work go to waste.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on December 05, 2017, 04:50:45 pm

Speaking to Jay / Grizz since I know you two are behind the exclusivity:
 

http://steamcommunity.com/id/drakattack (http://steamcommunity.com/id/drakattack)

http://steamcommunity.com/id/dax_the_wax (http://steamcommunity.com/id/dax_the_wax)
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: fig newtons on December 20, 2017, 04:52:06 pm
Speaking to Jay / Grizz dax / MK since I know you two are behind the exclusivity:
I don't know what the intent is behind it? Something tells me it's something not healthy at all, and it has to do with control / power. You do what you want at the end of the day, but if you expect people to be forced on your server indefinetly to satisfy your insecurities you're (probably, hopefully) wrong.
I talked to MK about this and the gist I got from him is that efreak has a vision of a hacker-free community, and if they published the config it would mean hackers banned on efreak could just play on a different server.

I'm not endorsing that view, fyi. Just repeating what I heard.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Dusty on December 21, 2017, 05:36:12 pm
It's also a vision of whoever I don't like or who I think is hacking can't play MY config. Which seems like we TFPG boiz
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on December 22, 2017, 05:52:05 am
It's also a vision of whoever I don't like or who I think is hacking can't play MY Grizz's config. Which seems like we TFPG boiz
fixed. i can't speak for Him, but i'm sure if he were still with us today that this is the last thing he would have wanted...
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: MK on January 07, 2018, 12:14:03 am
Hi all, how are you doing?

I am up for discussion so here I am.

4) We're gonna play Zonemod then

Jacob, your work looks inteteresting and people are excited to try it out but you're making using your config so much more of a hassle than it needs to be.

@Luckylock - You can play whatever mod you like, we just provide servers and a different mod to play on.  We by no means are trying to sway you into playing PME only.  I myself love playing both mods and have no problem getting my friends to join Sir or eFreak servers depending on what mod to play.  Both Zonemod 1.8 and ProMod Elite are exclusive to their steam group servers.

Maybe I should clear the air for you guys and I am open to discussion.  Yes the eFreak vision is to have a hacker free community.  If you hack, script, use macros, etc and get banned then sorry you cannot play on eFreak servers and PME.  We don't go around banning people we don't like.   

Previously there was only 1 NA server group which was Hot Mess.  Now there are eFreak servers and Sir servers.  If we ban a cheater that player can easily play on Sir servers until or if Sir bans them.

I am going to make an assumption and say that Sir turned on his servers because of eFreak banning Danne.  An ex-eFreak admin by the name of BCK and someone else(I don't remember) were watching Danne play.  They recorded a video and reviewed it frame by frame and believed that his crosshair at different moments was autolocking onto commons.  They made a decision and banned Danne.

I wasn't officially an admin at this time because I was making Bloom servers with IMNX and we were going to join them to eFreaks.  A lot of drama happened and Dax stepped down from eFreak and handed it to me, because of personal decisions.  I then removed BCK and Jay from staff for being unprofessional and other internal reasons.

That's more than I should have shared but I thought I would give you some insight.




Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Sir on January 07, 2018, 05:31:30 am
Hi all, how are you doing?

Howdy thurr!

Both Zonemod 1.8 and ProMod Elite are exclusive to their steam group servers.

The difference being that Zonemod has been public all this time, it's simply in a safe "test environment" as it's receiving its final touches.
It is in my opinion that a config that aims for "main" competitive play should not be limited to a single Server Group.
Especially not if it's going to be used for bigger Tournaments.

I am going to make an assumption and say that Sir turned on his servers because of eFreak banning Danne.
That is quite an assumption to make there my friend, I mean.. Danne's a good pal, but I wouldn't invest money in a bunch of Servers just so he has a place to call home. Heck, screw that man.
As far as I know, Danne wasn't even banned when I started up my Servers again.
Besides, everyone knows I'm an on/off switch, flickerin' lights, all that jazz.

An ex-eFreak admin by the name of BCK and someone else(I don't remember) were watching Danne play.  They recorded a video and reviewed it frame by frame and believed that his crosshair at different moments was autolocking onto commons.  They made a decision and banned Danne.

I think the problem with this is that the video was never shared AFAIK, multiple requests were made to share said footage, but it never was.

I then removed BCK and Jay from staff for being unprofessional and other internal reasons.

BCK?
The same admin that banned my good old pal Danne? :-X
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: sinclair on January 07, 2018, 08:47:44 am
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Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: volarium on January 08, 2018, 07:41:40 pm
Previously there was only 1 NA server group which was Hot Mess.  Now there are eFreak servers and Sir servers.  If we ban a cheater that player can easily play on Sir servers until or if Sir bans them.

For the record, even though Hot Mess ended up being the primary group at the end, that wasn't the case during most of the time Hot Mess existed.  In NA, Hot Mess shared the load with MANY other groups.  Only at the end did most of the other groups shut down for various reasons.  And internationally, Hot Mess was far from the only group, so players had plenty of server options. 

Dealing with players being banned on some servers and not on others is just simply part of this community, and there is no solution to it.  You can do your best to partner with other server owners, but this community will never reach a state where there is universal consensus on who should be banned, and in my opinion, that's okay because it's almost always subjective.

So, if you concede that withholding a feature or config is not realistically going to magically result in preventing players from playing on other servers, then truthfully the only rationale for doing so is for competition - in hopes that everyone will choose your group instead of others. If that's the goal, then I suppose you are making the right decision (for you) toward that goal.

However, for Hot Mess, that was never the goal.  From day one, the goal was always to do the right thing for the community, and provide a solid, fair option for players to choose to play.  It's true that during the years that Hot Mess existed, many partnerships were formed, and it often resulted in working together toward the betterment of the community, but there was never a point where we went out of our way to actively prevent players from choosing another group or server. If you provide a well-run place to play, then you shouldn't have to resort to petty tactics like withholding configs or excluding players.

I've been involved in this community almost since the beginning, when I helped build LTD, and from the very start, the community was built on sharing of knowledge and technology.  Folks like visor and psim and sir and jacob and countless others spent an absurd amount of their free time to create the plugins and configs that this community is built on.  And even though there has been some dissension in things like sharing source code and such, there has rarely been a time when plugins, configs, and information weren't readily shared with anyone who is willing to invest the time to make use of them.

Of course, some servers have different or better features than others, and that's expected, but the idea of literally withholding an entire config just to maintain a "corner on the market" seems completely absurd to me in this community. I'm actually ashamed of everyone who has participated in making that decision, because I think it completely contradicts the spirit of what this community is all about. 

Running a server group is an incredibly large investment of time, money, and stress, and there literally is NO payoff, financial or otherwise. In my opinion, the ONLY logical reason for even doing it is to give back to the community that we have all shared together, and to help bring a little order to the chaos so that we can continue to enjoy this game.  Making decisions in an effort to proactively control where people are allowed to play or not play, at least for me, is a slap in the face to all the people who have worked so hard over the years to selflessly do the right thing.

I truly mean no offense to anyone who worked on it (especially jacob, who I hold in very high regard), but realistically Promod Elite is just another config.  There is nothing magical or groundbreaking about it, and it will come and go like other configs. It's fun and exciting now, but it's not going to somehow transform the community. My issue is not specifically that this particular config is so special that this gift to mankind simply MUST be shared with the community, but more that I hate to see a dangerous precedent being set. After working so hard for this community for so many years, it would truly sadden me to see the community heading down a path that leads to dissension and exclusion, instead of trying to bring people together.
Title: Re: Promod, [e]Freak and Upcoming Tournament
Post by: Orrpo THE Monster on January 09, 2018, 08:33:15 am
It's also a vision of whoever I don't like or who I think is hacking can't play MY config. Which seems like we TFPG boiz

As much as I'm sure everybody in Europe and elsewhere yearns for the good old days of who is mates with Visor or Sir isn't banned, I see why others prefer this.
It's less a vision of whoever I don't like and more a vision of saying sucking up to the right admins at the right time, isn't enough.
 You said you thought he cheated in the past, they think he did too and haven't changed their mind (whether you have or not) they want him banned. I'm guessing they also see someone having a guy as admin and "assistant tournament director"  and who had this to chip in during the debate:

Nowhere did I say Danne is clean or not.

Is a little less than principally legit in his choice of admins. And that this is a way around that ban.

But ofc, that's fine with Sir in his money and decisions as it is fine with Efreak. Mostly it's either become an embarrassment or a running joke to do anything other than admit it was hacking and then a leap and hop to hugging the next server owner to not get banned / be made admin.

You personally at this moment can play on both servers. There is barely a negligible issue. Enjoy

If you provide a well-run place to play, then you shouldn't have to resort to petty tactics like withholding configs or excluding players.

Vol you yourself banned on your own servers, beyond your own set term limits of your own rules, for personal reasons, and your entire wall of text collapses with it on anything to add to the issue. This near nothing of an issue now is a direct response to those kinds of decisions made then.

I think the problem with this is that the video was never shared AFAIK, multiple requests were made to share said footage, but it never was.

And Danne didn't show his demos from that cup even when the tournament director requested them, and the Deli triggers, and the Dyl/Luckylock vid, and this gem https://clips.twitch.tv/IronicSoftTaroJKanStyle and so on and so on.


BCK?
The same admin that banned my good old pal Danne? :-X

No matter whose name showed up for a bit on the ban, the ultimate decision rested far away from only BCK at Efreak and any contribution he made. If you want to get closer to a person more influential in the Efreak ban, look no further than Deli.
Someone that already had him banned on EMC and that you made moderator of your group, at around the same time as you made Danne moderator.


This is a negligible issue. Rather easy and solved. If you want to play PME go to Efreak