Author Topic: my ideas on l4d2 competitive  (Read 6903 times)

Rails

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2015, 11:36:26 pm »
Give every team two melee weapons at the start of a round and have those be the only melees on the map, completely remove m2's on hunters and jockeys -- or, at the very least, make it only one m2 until cooldown or something to reduce the frequency people right click in this game rather than shooting.
I look forward to this post being taken down so that you can continue running a corrupt system for a game that has less teams then I can count with one hand.

3yebex

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2015, 01:15:50 pm »
No deadstops for jockeys / hunters... Why? This heavily punishes taking an uzi (especially a 35 ammo / clip uzi) and leads to annoying scenarios. (How do you counter a jockey rocketing off a roof onto your head? You can't even 1 shot a jockey with a shotgun.)
I've never really ran into an issue with Hunters/Jockeys and deadstopping and I take uzi quite often. It's more of a, "learn to strafe while shooting" issue, though the uzi has some terrible accuracy compared to the shotguns. I've also killed my fair-share of Jockeys mid-air with an uzi while they rocket-spawned. I however wouldn't say the Hunter needs deadstops removed as much as the Jockey, but removing deadstops for them wouldn't be the right way to go.

Honestly, the Jockey just needs a significant running speed increase due to the fact that you almost never see one consistently bhopping at you like in the good ole 30tick days. Any time I receive a Jockey (Even in a PUG) and there isn't a nearby area to rocket-spawn from, I know I'm going to be about as useless as a free-spit in vanilla.

Using different "levels" of difficulty for a config just flat out won't work. Everyone will play on the "hardest" version, because no one wants to think they aren't good enough to play on it. You might as well only make the "pro" version of it and scrap the rest. For those who don't remember, Pro Mod was originally just a "hardcore" version of metafogl, and wasn't intended to replace it. That's just how things work.
I'm agreeing with Jacob on this one. Anyone found not playing the hardest version will be ridiculed and looked down upon.

12 second spawn timers imo reduces SI skill cap significantly. Right now I think spawn timers are near the sweet spot. You need to make each hit count, meaning you need to be coordinated and choose your attack points wisely. Lower spawn timers would lead to more random "lol go" attacks.
I actually feel that the current spawn times could be reduced by 1-2 seconds right now... but that only applies when you're playing against experienced players. The usual choke points are now being passed with current spawn timers. In PUGs with still inexperienced people, the current spawn time is fine.

Choosing your spawn is really imbalanced for several reasons. You could be the shittiest charger and just never play it. That lowers the skill cap of the game. Similar to how we force everyone to play 1 tank, everyone should be able to play each SI.
I think this is moreso related to people being upset over being forced to be the Jockey for the attack. Even a two-two(eugh) without a Jockey has better potential.

Quad caps... I'm actually not opposed to them at all, I've been a proponent of them for a while. However I do feel they change the game significantly. At what point are we no different than DLR or any other modded server? Is it even "competitive l4d2" anymore? Or is it something different? Similar to how dota can't be called competitive warcraft, it's just dota. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just some food for thought.
Are we introducing something, for fun or for skill? Are quad caps currently needed or wanted in the current game? A lot of things were added to Left4Dead 2 from Left4Dead 1 because they were wanted... and look at how imbalanced pub games are. I try and list a lot of the changes in Promod at Left2Learn but I don't know how many people read it.

Give every team two melee weapons at the start of a round and have those be the only melees on the map, completely remove m2's on hunters and jockeys -- or, at the very least, make it only one m2 until cooldown or something to reduce the frequency people right click in this game rather than shooting.
Nothing is going to reduce the frequency of people M2ing in this game unless you completely remove M2 from certain SI. You also can't just nerf M2's fatigue even more without completely forcing people to take melees. As it is not with Jacob's ridiculous and much-needed-nerf boomer horde it is pretty damn difficult playing Promod without a melee right now. Playing as an SMG player without a melee weapon, my only crowd-control for common is my shove (and movement). Shotgun users have shove, movement, knock-back from buckshot, knock-back from melee swing, and a melee swing.

estoopi

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2015, 02:10:02 pm »
Don't lower the boomer horde...  I don't think i've been overbearingly common-locked the entire reflux tournament.   Even on the gauntlet finales of carried off and detour ahead...

tbh even the people who complain about the hordes in reflux don't really seem like they're struggling.. it just seems like they want something to complain about. :/


...


and i pretty much agree with everything Jacob said...

I only want quad caps for more excitement / sense of fear while playing...   

The only downfall I personally see with quad caps is that it's currently nice in promod when you can say "ok, we're probably going to have to deal with a spitter next attack"   or in reflux you can say "ok, we're probably going to have to deal with a quad cap next attack".... but if we introduce quad caps into promod, we might lose that sense of sack order and I think that is a nice strategic/meta to keep in tact.

I kind of want the scout too ....  just for more variety :/  ..  just like how we are adding bile and molotovs back in.... just trying to keep the game interesting ^_^


...


BTW jacob feel free to post the next map for round 5..  i don't care what map you pick.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 02:15:59 pm by estoopi »

Jacob

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2015, 02:26:25 pm »
BTW jacob feel free to post the next map for round 5..  i don't care what map you pick.

Lmao how'd you know I was lurkin this thread.

Anyways we've got some cool stuff planned for next update and I think it'd be best for everyone to save their idea of what is or isn't broken until after it's released. Feedback is always good, but it's better after an update comes out because it's hard to tell if something we've already changed / "fixed" will actually fix a problem people are having or not until it's played on.

If you have any formal suggestions for features, or you know of a bug / exploit... Please submit it here: https://github.com/jacob404/Pro-Mod-4.0/issues

We have a private issue tracker / repo for future builds of Pro Mod and if we see something with potential we will add it there.

Visor

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2015, 02:36:30 pm »
Really cute to see you guys struggling with dilemmas that I'd dealt with years ago.

Long story short: quad caps are not part of the game natively and are prone to fuck up SI class orders.

Long story:

During my 2012-2013 testing, enabled quad caps had the tendency to cause different starting spawns for the second team, as long as SI limits remained unaltered.

Basically, the game has some leftover algorithms from L4D1, so if tasked with a quadcap(which, technically, is a combination of SIs that doesn't include any support classes, i.e. boomer and spitter), it "wants" to put the hunter as the character that is replacing the supporter's slot. If it cannot do that(due to being limited to just one hunter), it bugs out and resets/randomizes some internal things. The results of it are only visible once the second half starts, since it is easier to notice that something is wrong when you can compare the starting spawns for both teams.

Then again, my information might be outdated. What if Valve actually fixed it by now? You can never know!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 02:38:28 pm by Visor »
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

Jacob

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2015, 02:52:15 pm »
But back then were you enabling quad caps via the isDominator flag? It'd be weird if it was trying to force a boomer spawn when the dominator flag was disabled for all classes.

Sam

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2015, 03:37:36 pm »
Basically, the game has some leftover algorithms from L4D1, so if tasked with a quadcap(which, technically, is a combination of SIs that doesn't include any support classes, i.e. boomer and spitter), it "wants" to put the hunter as the character that is replacing the supporter's slot. If it cannot do that(due to being limited to just one hunter), it bugs out and resets/randomizes some internal things. The results of it are only visible once the second half starts, since it is easier to notice that something is wrong when you can compare the starting spawns for both teams.

If this is still an issue, could you not just allow for multiple hunters as in reflux?

Dusty

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2015, 05:13:54 pm »
Honestly, If a jockey comes off a ledge above you, you are playing a game of roulette, m2 or die. and with how terrible the hitreg in this game feels with m2 sometimes, N O F U N.

In my perfect world, jockey gets removed/replaced with another hunter or becomes skeetable and faster. (AND TEXTBOX SAYS A JOCKEY HAS SPAWNED).

I don't need people to tell me to go play l4d1 or that all I want is to remove everything "special" about l4d2. Just voicing my opinion.



NF

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2015, 04:27:39 am »
(AND TEXTBOX SAYS A JOCKEY HAS SPAWNED).

imo the last thing promod needs is more chat spam. There's already a ton of unnecessary spam as it is, feels like dlr at times tbh. I think the bacteria noise works pretty well though, don't need a text print, but to be honest neither of them truly solve the problem because even if you know a Jockey spawns you can still get silent Jockey'd because you don't immediately know where he is.

I think the problem with silent SI lies in the fact that some Specials don't make noise as they are falling, like the Hunter and Boomer do. So when they fall off a roof they don't make a sound unless they hit the ground, which leads to you getting capped without even having an opportunity to fight back.

Dragon

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2015, 07:06:10 pm »
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(Theory for l4d2 high skill) this config is meant to bring out a diversity in player choice instead of creating clones, remember not everyone is born equal that's just my thoughts about promod, some people shine brighter than others playing different roles.

Fielding a survivor team where each player has their own roles, strengths and weaknesses, is something I tried theorising a long time ago while brainstorming for more fun-orientated configs. While I love the spice of life that is variety, an approach like this will inevitably harbour so many factors and variables that it could potentially raise a lot of questions for each unique survivor when in certain situations, depending of course on what unique setup each survivor has. This is to say that it will require a LOT of testing if you're trying to keep all the player types in check.

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time in relation to bonus TBD, probably should just be HB for now.

It's been mentioned a number of times before in the past by others, but implementing some sort of bonus based on time would mean that in order to be successful, all teams would have to adopt the exact same aggressive approach, thus making the style of the game more one-dimensional and less variable. While I don't doubt that it would be a more aesthetically-pleasing spectacle, converting the game into a sort of time trial would also hamper the variety between different teams and how they approach comp L4D2. As for HB/DB/Hybrid, there are more than enough forum pages on them already, but they're tried, tested and functional scoring systems.

Technically speaking, a 'time bonus' does exist already in HB scoring; it's called temp health which as we all know, gets activated the moment someone gets back on their feet after an incap or chugs some pills. Although it's not quite like the time bonus you probably have in mind, Grizz, more temp health on the board certainly does encourage teams to be more aggressive knowing that they have fewer options available to them when they're bleeding out and that they must act fast before they're too weak to see the end of the map or do anything else.

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no dead stops for jockey and hunter, make jockey skeetable.

Except for still being able to deadstop jockeys, the other two things are already in EQ and have proven to be fine. My only doubt about removing deadstops on jockeys is on dangerous chokepoints, especially ladder hits and giving a separation SI even more power in such a scenario (that particular point being one of the reasons why we made jockeys skeetable). A hunter is not a separation SI: he caps someone but cannot move them like the jockey can. In addition to that and ofc the classic approach of using a shotgun, an smg can skeet a hunter with just 2-3 well-placed headshots, which is why deadstops on hunters can easily be removed.

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4 class types to display individual skill and unique abilities  that are brought to the team
 
1. "The Sniper" choices AWP/scout, AWP damage = 300 per hit with a headshot multiplier of 2x with maybe l4d1 HR spread. the scout rifle should not be changed it's fine depending on the players preference of the sniper.
 
2. "The Defense" weapons = chrome shotgun/l4d1 pump shotgun/melee weapon of choice
 
3. "The Fulcrum" weapons = Silenced Uzi / melee of choice/medkit maybe? <-not sure on the medkit
 
4. "The support" weapons = Uzi 35 round limit/l4d2 pump shotgun 4 shell capacity with the choice of having all 3 throwables known in l4d2 making it helpful for your team being in a tight spot and the support should have a deagle for the role itself done by shade "the jay turret".

1. While it's cool that the designated sniper player gets the choice of which rifle he/she'd rather have of the two, I personally don't see any reason (other than it being the only choice available at the time) to pick up the scout knowing what the AWP has to offer in this circumstance. Even reducing the headshot multiplier from x4 down to x2, a single headshot from an AWP will still be enough to kill a full-hp charger (whereas the scout at most can only do 500 dmg with a headshot). You can headshot-stumble the witch and do about 900 dmg to her from miles away before she finally starts running for you, at which point she's as good as dead already. And if that wasn't enough on it's own, you'd only need 20 bullets from an AWP to kill a tank all by yourself, seeing as the AWP is effectively a rifle that hits as hard as a melee weapon but from any distance, without having to be within the tank's hugging range.

I think to justify there being a real choice to be made between either of the two, the AWP definitely should do more damage per bullet, but I'd say it should be at half of your estimate at the very least (150 dmg)  if not a tiny bit lower while retaining the usual x4 headshot multiplier. Because the AWP has slightly slower fire rate, longer reload speed and not entirely sure that it's as accurate as the scout either, I would also consider increasing its clip size relative to the scout, which in EQ either does have the L4D1 hunting rifle's spread or a value pretty close to it. So the AWP could have the same or a tiny bit more spread.

2. In terms of keeping with your theme, the "defense" player would be more of a CQC player which would be fine.

3. Again, this seems fine, but bear in mind that unless you edit the medkits, they clash horribly with HB scoring. Even if you lose a lot of perm hp, having a medkit on you when you reach the safe room is still going to give you a lot of bonus and will also have the counter-intuitive effect of negating all the hard work the SI did with their damage.

I don't know the exact specific values in regards to medkits, but for argument's sake let's say that the "fulcrum" player lost 70 perm hp in total before reaching the safe room and medkits in value are worth 80 perm hp. If the fulcrum player still has the medkit, then it will work the same way as pills currently do when contributing to the final score in the current HB system: it will add on the healing item's value until either the item's value has been fully accounted for, or the health bonus value of the survivor has already reached 100. Pills count for 50 temp hp, so that does get included in the current HB system as we know it. If a survivor has 50 perm hp and a set of pills on them when reaching the safe room, they'll have reached the max 100 value albeit the pills only count for temp health in terms of bonus.

Medkits however, count for perm health in HB scoring. As long as the fulcrum player still had the medkit on them when reaching the safe room, then it wouldn't matter if they suffered just 80 damage, 40 damage or no damage at all: the fulcrum player will still get something around 100% perm bonus value (at least that's what I theorise, unless there are other factors to consider?). Anyway, I don't think it'd be that important for your overall idea with this config to have even just one medkit or none at all, but if you really want to try including a medkit then at least in accordance with the current HB system, just make it worth 100 temp hp. Doing this would actually mean it's worth using on a survivor who is crawling on 1 hp instead of just downing them and increasing the incap counter for the sake of running faster and/or slightly more time bonus (temp hp) just before the safe room.

4. Again, for keeping it within your theme, it all seems fine except for the reduced clip size of the weapons which isn't really necessary. I think the "support" player's strength is that they are essentially the utility player: they can adapt to whatever situation depending on whether they prefer the uzi or the shotgun in that moment, but they don't get to wield the silenced smg or chrome shotgun. I think that's enough on its own without further nerfing the other T1 guns.

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"Special infected" 12 second spawn timers with ability to choose between quad caps and support SI at all times, also pertaining to trouble finding spawns there should be the option for the infected to have the ability of flying while ghosted giving them the ability to setup quicker for an attack, thus increasing more awareness from survivor play and unpredictability for the survivors at the same time.

As Battle already mentioned, having spawn timers that low makes picking up incapped survivors something of a headache and there's less emphasis on SI actually having to coordinate and maximise their prospects for even more damage. We tested different spawn timers extensively years ago, going as low as 13 seconds at one point (and realising that was a bit too much). We found 16 seconds to be hitting the sweet spot.

The choice of quadcaps is interesting because it turns an SI attack into an all-or-nothing approach: fantastic if the SI can nail it, but if not then the survivors can mitigate a hell of a lot of damage, not including the fact that there's no boomer or spitter to help amplify the damage. As for flight during ghost mode, it certainly has potential and quite a few applications for kamikaze-style rocket spawns that would not normally be possible in comp L4D2.

By the same token however, this kind of nullifies the point in using SI ladders or props to reach certain difficult areas in preparation for an attack. In a situation where the SI would struggle to get a hit in on time because they are having to use SI ladders and/or whatever to get to the spot they want, they can now hold down just one key without even having to use the map to get to where they want to be, and this does not even take into account the drastically-lowered spawn timers either! These two combined would give the SI a hell of a lot of power and damage potential with less effort than ever before.

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negating some parts of the sentence above there should be tiers for newer players and high skilled players referring to...

I get where you're coming from with the different tiers, but for the same reason as others already mentioned, why settle for anything less than the "top tier" category if that's where the best players are going to be? Lower tier variants (while understandable) are just delaying the inevitable jump into the deep end of the pool which is what anyone who is interested in bettering themselves and realising their potential, would have to do at some point anyway.

To conclude, there are definitely some interesting ideas here, Grizz. As a proponent of following one's own vision on a project, you should definitely try working on it and see where you get with it. In the state you suggested, I see Topfogl as a config leaning more towards being fun yet incredibly challenging for survivors than being strictly competitive, but with some edits and changes mentioned by myself and others, it might well tip the scale in the other direction. However, the concept of each survivor having a different role still leaves a question mark hanging over whether Topfogl can truly be competitive or not.

In my experience, configs work better by focusing on their unique aspects and strengths. In Topfogl's case, the most unique thing obviously is the different types and loadouts that each survivor is allocated with. It's going to be very tricky to make that work in the config's favour and if you were actually going to go ahead and try developing and testing it, you might need to spend a fair amount of time taking into account what each survivor can or cannot do in certain situations, while tinkering away with the settings until things seemingly fall into place. In case you are contemplating making it more than just a bunch of suggestions and start bringing it to life, good luck!

supra

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2015, 09:13:52 pm »
bravo (visor sucks): could you post on l4dnation for me, this thread is making my head hurt
bravo (visor sucks): like
bravo (visor sucks): all they need to do is make it
bravo (visor sucks): one mele folllowed by a 5 second cooldown
bravo (visor sucks): that solves almost everything
bravo (visor sucks): jockeys will be more viable
bravo (visor sucks): aim will be more relevant
bravo (visor sucks): easy fix

3yebex

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2015, 10:12:16 pm »
bravo (visor sucks): could you post on l4dnation for me, this thread is making my head hurt
bravo (visor sucks): like
bravo (visor sucks): all they need to do is make it
bravo (visor sucks): one mele folllowed by a 5 second cooldown
bravo (visor sucks): that solves almost everything
bravo (visor sucks): jockeys will be more viable
bravo (visor sucks): aim will be more relevant
bravo (visor sucks): easy fix
Then what happens to SMG users, or people that don't take melee?

Honestly, If a jockey comes off a ledge above you, you are playing a game of roulette, m2 or die.
I seriously don't understand this. Why not shoot it while it's falling and then side-step and shoot it when it lands? Hell, I kill Jockeys with SMG mid-air sometimes.

yams

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2015, 11:05:31 pm »
tbh, Reflux config of the year 2015, fuck spitters.

Sam

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2015, 12:19:58 am »
Then what happens to SMG users, or people that don't take melee?
I seriously don't understand this. Why not shoot it while it's falling and then side-step and shoot it when it lands? Hell, I kill Jockeys with SMG mid-air sometimes.

Im assuming you are saying this because of horde? Because I mean every si you can just sidestep and shoot, so obviously it must be about common infected. To which I say that common are not so much an issue that they require an m2 every second. At worst teams would need to help more with common infected. Maybe clear some teammates, send survivors with melees first during events, adjust to the absence of the crutch of the m2 that you have come to rely upon so heavily?


At this point Reflux is a nigh perfect config: add spitters, remove uzi/shotgun limit, and fix all that there is with jockeys/remove them. I understand that in order to do these things would require some tweaking (e.g shotgun/uzi balancing), but i trust that the deities of promod would scoff at such a challenge.

KiLLaToY

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Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2015, 08:28:14 am »
I haven't been reading anything that has been posted. Have melee weapons and deagles been removed yet?

 

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