L4DNation

L4DNation => General => Topic started by: Griz on June 29, 2015, 12:27:14 pm

Title: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Griz on June 29, 2015, 12:27:14 pm
http://pastebin.com/3Q5ucWv6 (http://pastebin.com/3Q5ucWv6)
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Gray` on June 29, 2015, 12:53:28 pm
My thoughts:


Other than that, it looks like a pretty fun idea. I'd play a config like this.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Griz on June 29, 2015, 01:02:26 pm
thanks gray :D
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Battle on June 29, 2015, 01:06:24 pm
While i have read the list sir grizz, i point out the ones below in order to prevent WALLOTEXT

"no dead stops for jockey and hunter, make jockey skeetable. "

Already done once in EQ, not sure if it still exists but there quite the substantial shitstorm after the changes were made so may have since been reverted.

""The Sniper" choices AWP/scout, AWP damage = 300 per hit with a headshot multiplier of 2x with maybe l4d1 HR spread. the scout rifle should not be changed it's fine depending on the players preference of the sniper."

Variables far too high, the scout has itself already been modified once as the HS counter is x4 and 125 dam per shot was already considered "too OP" despite the modifyer only comming into effect that those numbers via tank more so than standard SI, and 300 is too high, even with a x2 damage multiplier to Headshots 300 drops 90% of the SI in 1 bullet bar the jockey and charger which after those bullets are near enough dead anyway.

Finally although not direct as theres a few different points you made i guess interms of the teir beginner to pros but spawn timers below 16 seconds are pretty insane if you go near the 14 second mark then you near on lose the point of attacking as a team in alot of instances, and it also makes pickups near impossible as you can continually send spawns in some scenarios, also means after remodification to tank los (now that a ranged weapon is to be brought back in) to grant the tank A)More grace B) not be punished so heavily for the distance / ammount of time survivors spend in LoS positions.

I'm by no means being an intentional cunt here to try cut down your ideas in their prime grizz therescertainly a few that could be expanded on through the correct channels to atleast be tried as a feature, my only criticism comes from the "tried and tested" methods that i mentioned above, but hell im all for change

Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Griz on June 29, 2015, 01:27:58 pm
perhaps reduce the timer of pickups? and I feel as though the AWP being constantly threatend by low spawn timers could create a balance of it's spread and there being no deadstops making it the classic "high risk high reward" weapon.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: supra on June 29, 2015, 01:32:29 pm
do it do it do it do it do it
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Battle on June 29, 2015, 01:49:52 pm
During the testing phase the AWP was first choice before the scouts introduction , slower fire rate so merits the damage buff but i found the scout conformed more to the meta of the time, ive always been a fan of it though hence my pushing to have it included in EQ, the weapon is very pro n con based sure its great for chipping tanks at range etc, but once something is in your face the weapon loses alot of its use and become quite the crux, probably why ive always found it as more of a balanced alternative to the HR
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Sam on June 29, 2015, 02:31:37 pm
this is the opposite direction that a "high skill" config needs to go.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: NativeAvian on June 29, 2015, 03:22:26 pm
Woah this "config" needs a lot of improvement before I can remotely take it seriously.
Not being able to deadstop jockeys is a bit of a huge buff to them. In fact no matter what you do them they will only get worse and worse just remove them in general.
Is the reason for the AWP damage being so high so you can more easily tk your team or is that a typo? I don't see a reason for the dmg to be so high. Just shooting the tank 3 times and you killed maybe 80% tanks before commit.
I don't understand the player roles at all. If L4D worked like an RPG I would understand it more but if the team wanted to run 3 shotties and scout do we tk the shotty guy and take turns using it?
Tri caps only is a bit silly all players regardless off skill level deserves a chance at the best comeback mechanic in the game. Plus it shows off game knowledge when a team is always properly rotating spawns out, compared to the pub mentality of blindly sending everything in every hit.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: NF on June 29, 2015, 03:52:02 pm
We TF2 now.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Gray` on June 29, 2015, 04:14:00 pm
Woah this "config" needs a lot of improvement before I can remotely take it seriously.
Not being able to deadstop jockeys is a bit of a huge buff to them. In fact no matter what you do them they will only get worse and worse just remove them in general.
Is the reason for the AWP damage being so high so you can more easily tk your team or is that a typo? I don't see a reason for the dmg to be so high. Just shooting the tank 3 times and you killed maybe 80% tanks before commit.
I don't understand the player roles at all. If L4D worked like an RPG I would understand it more but if the team wanted to run 3 shotties and scout do we tk the shotty guy and take turns using it?
Tri caps only is a bit silly all players regardless off skill level deserves a chance at the best comeback mechanic in the game. Plus it shows off game knowledge when a team is always properly rotating spawns out, compared to the pub mentality of blindly sending everything in every hit.

Given that the AWP is only stated to be made available in high+ tier, I'd say if you incap your teammates it's all on you (or them if they keep jumping into your LOS). TKing to cycle an AWP and run 3v4 in high tier games would likely be tantamount to suicide.

The removal of deadstops is a good idea for higher tier, IMO, as you kind of expect people to rely on left-click more than right-click. At least, that's the way I see it. With the removal of deadstops and lowered spawn timers at high+ tier, I would think that the AWP would be fairly balanced being under constant pressure. Being able to one-shot most SI would be fine, since AWP reload is slow. Only way to know would be to put it to the test.

Lastly, I'm all for the possibility of quad caps each hit.  8)
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: K3pooch on June 29, 2015, 06:59:33 pm
I think it's definitely worth a go. Mostly to offer a cool diversity that hasn't ever been done before. From what I've noticed, the best teams usually will win on whichever config is played. If you made an all-boomers config, I would bet that you'd still see the same 3 or 4 teams coming out on top. What I'm saying is, I don't see the point in complaining about a new, never-before-tested, relatively balanced (with some polishing) config. It's not like it's going to bring down the community and make the worst teams start beating the best ones, or that promod will stop being played or whatever. L4D2 is still L4D2 at the end of the day.

My suggestion, if you're really dedicated to getting this out there, is that if you can't find somebody who will code it, then learn to code the config yourself, and get people to play it in pugs and scrims. Get feedback and make changes to make it as widely accepted as possible (the way promod developed). Maybe it will suck ass and everybody will hate it. Maybe you'll prove everyone wrong and it's a balanced, fun config that offers a nice twist to the game. If people like it, organize a tournament for people to really see its potential.

Deadstops or not, survivor classes or not, 10 or 30 second spawn timers, the best team will still win. The main conflict I see here is that there will for sure be much less people who want to play a support class over sniper or defense, especially in a pug situation.

Or, I mean, we can keep playing Parish, Carny, Hard Rain on Promod and never speak of this again.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Jacob on June 29, 2015, 07:35:06 pm
Well I guess I'm gunna share my input since I have a few minutes and I've been thinking about this since I read it this morning. Maybe my post will be poinltess and ignored, but oh well here goes nothing.

First off, forcing players into roles is not the way to make a game more balanced, or more fun. Even dota, a game that has roles, is incredibly flexible in that regard. You could play practically any hero from any role if you really wanted to. Your team can have 5 carrys and still win the game (it would just be harder, but valve doesn't force you to play the game their way). Why should we force a player into taking a 35 ammo uzi? That sounds like an awful time for that player. I'm already against forcing players into 1 playstyle and have tried to make the game as open to different strategies as possible. I could rant about this particular point for probably 10 paragraphs but I won't as not to distract from the rest of the changes you proposed.

Time bonus imo does not belong in the game, at least in the way it's often proposed. If anything there should be time penalties for taking too long, but you shouldn't be rewarded for blindly rushing and eating hits. You didn't seem that set on this idea so I won't get too into it, I think everyone can see the pros and cons of this one and form their own opinions.

No deadstops for jockeys / hunters... Why? This heavily punishes taking an uzi (especially a 35 ammo / clip uzi) and leads to annoying scenarios. (How do you counter a jockey rocketing off a roof onto your head? You can't even 1 shot a jockey with a shotgun.) M2s have already been nerfed so hard at this point, I feel like people forget about just how "bad" m2 actually is. Your m2 fov is reduced to 1/3 the original value, and if you do m2 an infected your fatigue is increased by 1 bonus amount. In other words shoving air = 1 fatigue, shoving SI = 2 fatigue. You can realistically only shove an SI twice before having max fatigue. If anything that value should be increased so you can only shove an SI once before max fatigue, but removing the mechanic altogether significantly changes the game.

Using different "levels" of difficulty for a config just flat out won't work. Everyone will play on the "hardest" version, because no one wants to think they aren't good enough to play on it. You might as well only make the "pro" version of it and scrap the rest. For those who don't remember, Pro Mod was originally just a "hardcore" version of metafogl, and wasn't intended to replace it. That's just how things work.

12 second spawn timers imo reduces SI skill cap significantly. Right now I think spawn timers are near the sweet spot. You need to make each hit count, meaning you need to be coordinated and choose your attack points wisely. Lower spawn timers would lead to more random "lol go" attacks.

Choosing your spawn is really imbalanced for several reasons. You could be the shittiest charger and just never play it. That lowers the skill cap of the game. Similar to how we force everyone to play 1 tank, everyone should be able to play each SI.

Quad caps... I'm actually not opposed to them at all, I've been a proponent of them for a while. However I do feel they change the game significantly. At what point are we no different than DLR or any other modded server? Is it even "competitive l4d2" anymore? Or is it something different? Similar to how dota can't be called competitive warcraft, it's just dota. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just some food for thought.

And one thing I kinda barely touched on with quad caps, is that I don't think you are considering new player's entry point into the config. Right now a new player can join a pro mod game and sure they wouldn't know all the details of how health bonus works, or how the tank doesn't pass, etc. But it still feels like l4d2 while playing it. At some point with adding quad caps, roles, etc. it becomes so much harder to get into. Idunno.

Now with all my nitpicking, I don't want you to think I'm just trying to bash your idea. Rather I'm trying to give feedback that maybe you hadn't thought about up to this point. I've been doing this a long time, and I've always been open to trying new things even if it meant me getting bashed. (cough, throwback, cough, pro mod 3.2, cough, natural hordes, cough, bile ~oh you get the idea) So in that regard I support you giving new ideas despite the fact that they are controversial. I just don't want people to bandwagon with the ideas one way or the other. Idk, hopefully my ramblings made some sense and have some sort of value because I didn't have time to get in depth with my opinions.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Pariah on June 29, 2015, 08:05:08 pm
Jacob seems to have summed it up nicely, something i'd like to point out is that in paper you probably think this is all a wonderful idea if you were to actually be given the chance to play the config you've described though? I don't think you'd enjoy it at all, it sounds like Hentai rape style game ruining. This isn't the path to head down if you want the perfect L4D2 competitive config.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: hib on June 29, 2015, 10:10:05 pm
this is the opposite direction that a "high skill" config needs to go.

Sounds like he wants us to play some !dlr config...

Agree to what Jacob said about not being able to 1 shot the jockey and uzi concept.

I would propose setting a melee limit, maybe 2. So, that there aren't too many "melee runners" as Grizz was on Parish map 1.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Rails on June 29, 2015, 11:36:26 pm
Give every team two melee weapons at the start of a round and have those be the only melees on the map, completely remove m2's on hunters and jockeys -- or, at the very least, make it only one m2 until cooldown or something to reduce the frequency people right click in this game rather than shooting.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: 3yebex on June 30, 2015, 01:15:50 pm
No deadstops for jockeys / hunters... Why? This heavily punishes taking an uzi (especially a 35 ammo / clip uzi) and leads to annoying scenarios. (How do you counter a jockey rocketing off a roof onto your head? You can't even 1 shot a jockey with a shotgun.)
I've never really ran into an issue with Hunters/Jockeys and deadstopping and I take uzi quite often. It's more of a, "learn to strafe while shooting" issue, though the uzi has some terrible accuracy compared to the shotguns. I've also killed my fair-share of Jockeys mid-air with an uzi while they rocket-spawned. I however wouldn't say the Hunter needs deadstops removed as much as the Jockey, but removing deadstops for them wouldn't be the right way to go.

Honestly, the Jockey just needs a significant running speed increase due to the fact that you almost never see one consistently bhopping at you like in the good ole 30tick days. Any time I receive a Jockey (Even in a PUG) and there isn't a nearby area to rocket-spawn from, I know I'm going to be about as useless as a free-spit in vanilla.

Using different "levels" of difficulty for a config just flat out won't work. Everyone will play on the "hardest" version, because no one wants to think they aren't good enough to play on it. You might as well only make the "pro" version of it and scrap the rest. For those who don't remember, Pro Mod was originally just a "hardcore" version of metafogl, and wasn't intended to replace it. That's just how things work.
I'm agreeing with Jacob on this one. Anyone found not playing the hardest version will be ridiculed and looked down upon.

12 second spawn timers imo reduces SI skill cap significantly. Right now I think spawn timers are near the sweet spot. You need to make each hit count, meaning you need to be coordinated and choose your attack points wisely. Lower spawn timers would lead to more random "lol go" attacks.
I actually feel that the current spawn times could be reduced by 1-2 seconds right now... but that only applies when you're playing against experienced players. The usual choke points are now being passed with current spawn timers. In PUGs with still inexperienced people, the current spawn time is fine.

Choosing your spawn is really imbalanced for several reasons. You could be the shittiest charger and just never play it. That lowers the skill cap of the game. Similar to how we force everyone to play 1 tank, everyone should be able to play each SI.
I think this is moreso related to people being upset over being forced to be the Jockey for the attack. Even a two-two(eugh) without a Jockey has better potential.

Quad caps... I'm actually not opposed to them at all, I've been a proponent of them for a while. However I do feel they change the game significantly. At what point are we no different than DLR or any other modded server? Is it even "competitive l4d2" anymore? Or is it something different? Similar to how dota can't be called competitive warcraft, it's just dota. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just some food for thought.
Are we introducing something, for fun or for skill? Are quad caps currently needed or wanted in the current game? A lot of things were added to Left4Dead 2 from Left4Dead 1 because they were wanted... and look at how imbalanced pub games are. I try and list a lot of the changes in Promod at Left2Learn but I don't know how many people read it.

Give every team two melee weapons at the start of a round and have those be the only melees on the map, completely remove m2's on hunters and jockeys -- or, at the very least, make it only one m2 until cooldown or something to reduce the frequency people right click in this game rather than shooting.
Nothing is going to reduce the frequency of people M2ing in this game unless you completely remove M2 from certain SI. You also can't just nerf M2's fatigue even more without completely forcing people to take melees. As it is not with Jacob's ridiculous and much-needed-nerf boomer horde it is pretty damn difficult playing Promod without a melee right now. Playing as an SMG player without a melee weapon, my only crowd-control for common is my shove (and movement). Shotgun users have shove, movement, knock-back from buckshot, knock-back from melee swing, and a melee swing.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: estoopi on June 30, 2015, 02:10:02 pm
Don't lower the boomer horde...  I don't think i've been overbearingly common-locked the entire reflux tournament.   Even on the gauntlet finales of carried off and detour ahead...

tbh even the people who complain about the hordes in reflux don't really seem like they're struggling.. it just seems like they want something to complain about. :/


...


and i pretty much agree with everything Jacob said...

I only want quad caps for more excitement / sense of fear while playing...   

The only downfall I personally see with quad caps is that it's currently nice in promod when you can say "ok, we're probably going to have to deal with a spitter next attack"   or in reflux you can say "ok, we're probably going to have to deal with a quad cap next attack".... but if we introduce quad caps into promod, we might lose that sense of sack order and I think that is a nice strategic/meta to keep in tact.

I kind of want the scout too ....  just for more variety :/  ..  just like how we are adding bile and molotovs back in.... just trying to keep the game interesting ^_^


...


BTW jacob feel free to post the next map for round 5..  i don't care what map you pick.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Jacob on June 30, 2015, 02:26:25 pm
BTW jacob feel free to post the next map for round 5..  i don't care what map you pick.

Lmao how'd you know I was lurkin this thread.

Anyways we've got some cool stuff planned for next update and I think it'd be best for everyone to save their idea of what is or isn't broken until after it's released. Feedback is always good, but it's better after an update comes out because it's hard to tell if something we've already changed / "fixed" will actually fix a problem people are having or not until it's played on.

If you have any formal suggestions for features, or you know of a bug / exploit... Please submit it here: https://github.com/jacob404/Pro-Mod-4.0/issues

We have a private issue tracker / repo for future builds of Pro Mod and if we see something with potential we will add it there.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Visor on June 30, 2015, 02:36:30 pm
Really cute to see you guys struggling with dilemmas that I'd dealt with years ago.

Long story short: quad caps are not part of the game natively and are prone to fuck up SI class orders.

Long story:

During my 2012-2013 testing, enabled quad caps had the tendency to cause different starting spawns for the second team, as long as SI limits remained unaltered.

Basically, the game has some leftover algorithms from L4D1, so if tasked with a quadcap(which, technically, is a combination of SIs that doesn't include any support classes, i.e. boomer and spitter), it "wants" to put the hunter as the character that is replacing the supporter's slot. If it cannot do that(due to being limited to just one hunter), it bugs out and resets/randomizes some internal things. The results of it are only visible once the second half starts, since it is easier to notice that something is wrong when you can compare the starting spawns for both teams.

Then again, my information might be outdated. What if Valve actually fixed it by now? You can never know!
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Jacob on June 30, 2015, 02:52:15 pm
But back then were you enabling quad caps via the isDominator flag? It'd be weird if it was trying to force a boomer spawn when the dominator flag was disabled for all classes.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Sam on June 30, 2015, 03:37:36 pm
Basically, the game has some leftover algorithms from L4D1, so if tasked with a quadcap(which, technically, is a combination of SIs that doesn't include any support classes, i.e. boomer and spitter), it "wants" to put the hunter as the character that is replacing the supporter's slot. If it cannot do that(due to being limited to just one hunter), it bugs out and resets/randomizes some internal things. The results of it are only visible once the second half starts, since it is easier to notice that something is wrong when you can compare the starting spawns for both teams.

If this is still an issue, could you not just allow for multiple hunters as in reflux?
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Dusty on June 30, 2015, 05:13:54 pm
Honestly, If a jockey comes off a ledge above you, you are playing a game of roulette, m2 or die. and with how terrible the hitreg in this game feels with m2 sometimes, N O F U N.

In my perfect world, jockey gets removed/replaced with another hunter or becomes skeetable and faster. (AND TEXTBOX SAYS A JOCKEY HAS SPAWNED).

I don't need people to tell me to go play l4d1 or that all I want is to remove everything "special" about l4d2. Just voicing my opinion.


Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: NF on July 01, 2015, 04:27:39 am
(AND TEXTBOX SAYS A JOCKEY HAS SPAWNED).

imo the last thing promod needs is more chat spam. There's already a ton of unnecessary spam as it is, feels like dlr at times tbh. I think the bacteria noise works pretty well though, don't need a text print, but to be honest neither of them truly solve the problem because even if you know a Jockey spawns you can still get silent Jockey'd because you don't immediately know where he is.

I think the problem with silent SI lies in the fact that some Specials don't make noise as they are falling, like the Hunter and Boomer do. So when they fall off a roof they don't make a sound unless they hit the ground, which leads to you getting capped without even having an opportunity to fight back.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Dragon on July 01, 2015, 07:06:10 pm
Quote
(Theory for l4d2 high skill) this config is meant to bring out a diversity in player choice instead of creating clones, remember not everyone is born equal that's just my thoughts about promod, some people shine brighter than others playing different roles.

Fielding a survivor team where each player has their own roles, strengths and weaknesses, is something I tried theorising a long time ago while brainstorming for more fun-orientated configs. While I love the spice of life that is variety, an approach like this will inevitably harbour so many factors and variables that it could potentially raise a lot of questions for each unique survivor when in certain situations, depending of course on what unique setup each survivor has. This is to say that it will require a LOT of testing if you're trying to keep all the player types in check.

Quote
time in relation to bonus TBD, probably should just be HB for now.

It's been mentioned a number of times before in the past by others, but implementing some sort of bonus based on time would mean that in order to be successful, all teams would have to adopt the exact same aggressive approach, thus making the style of the game more one-dimensional and less variable. While I don't doubt that it would be a more aesthetically-pleasing spectacle, converting the game into a sort of time trial would also hamper the variety between different teams and how they approach comp L4D2. As for HB/DB/Hybrid, there are more than enough forum pages on them already, but they're tried, tested and functional scoring systems.

Technically speaking, a 'time bonus' does exist already in HB scoring; it's called temp health which as we all know, gets activated the moment someone gets back on their feet after an incap or chugs some pills. Although it's not quite like the time bonus you probably have in mind, Grizz, more temp health on the board certainly does encourage teams to be more aggressive knowing that they have fewer options available to them when they're bleeding out and that they must act fast before they're too weak to see the end of the map or do anything else.

Quote
no dead stops for jockey and hunter, make jockey skeetable.

Except for still being able to deadstop jockeys, the other two things are already in EQ and have proven to be fine. My only doubt about removing deadstops on jockeys is on dangerous chokepoints, especially ladder hits and giving a separation SI even more power in such a scenario (that particular point being one of the reasons why we made jockeys skeetable). A hunter is not a separation SI: he caps someone but cannot move them like the jockey can. In addition to that and ofc the classic approach of using a shotgun, an smg can skeet a hunter with just 2-3 well-placed headshots, which is why deadstops on hunters can easily be removed.

Quote
4 class types to display individual skill and unique abilities  that are brought to the team
 
1. "The Sniper" choices AWP/scout, AWP damage = 300 per hit with a headshot multiplier of 2x with maybe l4d1 HR spread. the scout rifle should not be changed it's fine depending on the players preference of the sniper.
 
2. "The Defense" weapons = chrome shotgun/l4d1 pump shotgun/melee weapon of choice
 
3. "The Fulcrum" weapons = Silenced Uzi / melee of choice/medkit maybe? <-not sure on the medkit
 
4. "The support" weapons = Uzi 35 round limit/l4d2 pump shotgun 4 shell capacity with the choice of having all 3 throwables known in l4d2 making it helpful for your team being in a tight spot and the support should have a deagle for the role itself done by shade "the jay turret".

1. While it's cool that the designated sniper player gets the choice of which rifle he/she'd rather have of the two, I personally don't see any reason (other than it being the only choice available at the time) to pick up the scout knowing what the AWP has to offer in this circumstance. Even reducing the headshot multiplier from x4 down to x2, a single headshot from an AWP will still be enough to kill a full-hp charger (whereas the scout at most can only do 500 dmg with a headshot). You can headshot-stumble the witch and do about 900 dmg to her from miles away before she finally starts running for you, at which point she's as good as dead already. And if that wasn't enough on it's own, you'd only need 20 bullets from an AWP to kill a tank all by yourself, seeing as the AWP is effectively a rifle that hits as hard as a melee weapon but from any distance, without having to be within the tank's hugging range.

I think to justify there being a real choice to be made between either of the two, the AWP definitely should do more damage per bullet, but I'd say it should be at half of your estimate at the very least (150 dmg)  if not a tiny bit lower while retaining the usual x4 headshot multiplier. Because the AWP has slightly slower fire rate, longer reload speed and not entirely sure that it's as accurate as the scout either, I would also consider increasing its clip size relative to the scout, which in EQ either does have the L4D1 hunting rifle's spread or a value pretty close to it. So the AWP could have the same or a tiny bit more spread.

2. In terms of keeping with your theme, the "defense" player would be more of a CQC player which would be fine.

3. Again, this seems fine, but bear in mind that unless you edit the medkits, they clash horribly with HB scoring. Even if you lose a lot of perm hp, having a medkit on you when you reach the safe room is still going to give you a lot of bonus and will also have the counter-intuitive effect of negating all the hard work the SI did with their damage.

I don't know the exact specific values in regards to medkits, but for argument's sake let's say that the "fulcrum" player lost 70 perm hp in total before reaching the safe room and medkits in value are worth 80 perm hp. If the fulcrum player still has the medkit, then it will work the same way as pills currently do when contributing to the final score in the current HB system: it will add on the healing item's value until either the item's value has been fully accounted for, or the health bonus value of the survivor has already reached 100. Pills count for 50 temp hp, so that does get included in the current HB system as we know it. If a survivor has 50 perm hp and a set of pills on them when reaching the safe room, they'll have reached the max 100 value albeit the pills only count for temp health in terms of bonus.

Medkits however, count for perm health in HB scoring. As long as the fulcrum player still had the medkit on them when reaching the safe room, then it wouldn't matter if they suffered just 80 damage, 40 damage or no damage at all: the fulcrum player will still get something around 100% perm bonus value (at least that's what I theorise, unless there are other factors to consider?). Anyway, I don't think it'd be that important for your overall idea with this config to have even just one medkit or none at all, but if you really want to try including a medkit then at least in accordance with the current HB system, just make it worth 100 temp hp. Doing this would actually mean it's worth using on a survivor who is crawling on 1 hp instead of just downing them and increasing the incap counter for the sake of running faster and/or slightly more time bonus (temp hp) just before the safe room.

4. Again, for keeping it within your theme, it all seems fine except for the reduced clip size of the weapons which isn't really necessary. I think the "support" player's strength is that they are essentially the utility player: they can adapt to whatever situation depending on whether they prefer the uzi or the shotgun in that moment, but they don't get to wield the silenced smg or chrome shotgun. I think that's enough on its own without further nerfing the other T1 guns.

Quote
"Special infected" 12 second spawn timers with ability to choose between quad caps and support SI at all times, also pertaining to trouble finding spawns there should be the option for the infected to have the ability of flying while ghosted giving them the ability to setup quicker for an attack, thus increasing more awareness from survivor play and unpredictability for the survivors at the same time.

As Battle already mentioned, having spawn timers that low makes picking up incapped survivors something of a headache and there's less emphasis on SI actually having to coordinate and maximise their prospects for even more damage. We tested different spawn timers extensively years ago, going as low as 13 seconds at one point (and realising that was a bit too much). We found 16 seconds to be hitting the sweet spot.

The choice of quadcaps is interesting because it turns an SI attack into an all-or-nothing approach: fantastic if the SI can nail it, but if not then the survivors can mitigate a hell of a lot of damage, not including the fact that there's no boomer or spitter to help amplify the damage. As for flight during ghost mode, it certainly has potential and quite a few applications for kamikaze-style rocket spawns that would not normally be possible in comp L4D2.

By the same token however, this kind of nullifies the point in using SI ladders or props to reach certain difficult areas in preparation for an attack. In a situation where the SI would struggle to get a hit in on time because they are having to use SI ladders and/or whatever to get to the spot they want, they can now hold down just one key without even having to use the map to get to where they want to be, and this does not even take into account the drastically-lowered spawn timers either! These two combined would give the SI a hell of a lot of power and damage potential with less effort than ever before.

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negating some parts of the sentence above there should be tiers for newer players and high skilled players referring to...

I get where you're coming from with the different tiers, but for the same reason as others already mentioned, why settle for anything less than the "top tier" category if that's where the best players are going to be? Lower tier variants (while understandable) are just delaying the inevitable jump into the deep end of the pool which is what anyone who is interested in bettering themselves and realising their potential, would have to do at some point anyway.

To conclude, there are definitely some interesting ideas here, Grizz. As a proponent of following one's own vision on a project, you should definitely try working on it and see where you get with it. In the state you suggested, I see Topfogl as a config leaning more towards being fun yet incredibly challenging for survivors than being strictly competitive, but with some edits and changes mentioned by myself and others, it might well tip the scale in the other direction. However, the concept of each survivor having a different role still leaves a question mark hanging over whether Topfogl can truly be competitive or not.

In my experience, configs work better by focusing on their unique aspects and strengths. In Topfogl's case, the most unique thing obviously is the different types and loadouts that each survivor is allocated with. It's going to be very tricky to make that work in the config's favour and if you were actually going to go ahead and try developing and testing it, you might need to spend a fair amount of time taking into account what each survivor can or cannot do in certain situations, while tinkering away with the settings until things seemingly fall into place. In case you are contemplating making it more than just a bunch of suggestions and start bringing it to life, good luck!
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: supra on July 01, 2015, 09:13:52 pm
bravo (visor sucks): could you post on l4dnation for me, this thread is making my head hurt
bravo (visor sucks): like
bravo (visor sucks): all they need to do is make it
bravo (visor sucks): one mele folllowed by a 5 second cooldown
bravo (visor sucks): that solves almost everything
bravo (visor sucks): jockeys will be more viable
bravo (visor sucks): aim will be more relevant
bravo (visor sucks): easy fix
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: 3yebex on July 01, 2015, 10:12:16 pm
bravo (visor sucks): could you post on l4dnation for me, this thread is making my head hurt
bravo (visor sucks): like
bravo (visor sucks): all they need to do is make it
bravo (visor sucks): one mele folllowed by a 5 second cooldown
bravo (visor sucks): that solves almost everything
bravo (visor sucks): jockeys will be more viable
bravo (visor sucks): aim will be more relevant
bravo (visor sucks): easy fix
Then what happens to SMG users, or people that don't take melee?

Honestly, If a jockey comes off a ledge above you, you are playing a game of roulette, m2 or die.
I seriously don't understand this. Why not shoot it while it's falling and then side-step and shoot it when it lands? Hell, I kill Jockeys with SMG mid-air sometimes.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: yams on July 01, 2015, 11:05:31 pm
tbh, Reflux config of the year 2015, fuck spitters.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Sam on July 02, 2015, 12:19:58 am
Then what happens to SMG users, or people that don't take melee?
I seriously don't understand this. Why not shoot it while it's falling and then side-step and shoot it when it lands? Hell, I kill Jockeys with SMG mid-air sometimes.

Im assuming you are saying this because of horde? Because I mean every si you can just sidestep and shoot, so obviously it must be about common infected. To which I say that common are not so much an issue that they require an m2 every second. At worst teams would need to help more with common infected. Maybe clear some teammates, send survivors with melees first during events, adjust to the absence of the crutch of the m2 that you have come to rely upon so heavily?


At this point Reflux is a nigh perfect config: add spitters, remove uzi/shotgun limit, and fix all that there is with jockeys/remove them. I understand that in order to do these things would require some tweaking (e.g shotgun/uzi balancing), but i trust that the deities of promod would scoff at such a challenge.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: KiLLaToY on July 02, 2015, 08:28:14 am
I haven't been reading anything that has been posted. Have melee weapons and deagles been removed yet?
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: KiLLaToY on July 02, 2015, 08:36:46 am
Also, jockeys are pro tier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_VNVcSj5I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_VNVcSj5I)

EDIT: Also, I have NEVER missed an M2 on a jockey. I literally kill every jockey with M2 without even trying.

EDIT2: Thanks for the L4D Gold kind gentlesir!

EDIT3: Don't try to downvote me or I'll M2 you so hard you will feel it IRL.
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Jacob on July 02, 2015, 01:31:43 pm
I've heard your pleas people... AND I'VE GOT A PLAN FOR THE JOCKEY ALRIGHT. HOHOHOEHEHEHEHEH
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Jacob on July 02, 2015, 01:33:42 pm
I think you guys are actually gunna fucking love me
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: ElusivĪ£ on July 02, 2015, 02:29:04 pm
I think you guys are actually gunna fucking love me

nah im good

Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Visor on July 02, 2015, 04:22:12 pm
What if I already love you?  ::)
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Friday. on July 03, 2015, 06:24:29 am
Make the first deagle bullet insanely accurate at a stand still  :P

Frag videos and live matches might actually be exciting to watch then  8)
Title: Re: my ideas on l4d2 competitive
Post by: Map 1 on July 04, 2015, 09:03:51 am
I don't have all the answers for l4d2 competitive, but L4D3 casual/pubs, its a simple fix even without knowing whats in store for that game.

Make 8 vs 8 the standard and call it a day. As it is, I already see 8 player coop as another 'feature' Valve will steal from the sourcemod community anyway and implement it into L4D3 in a non story mode capacity, so why not just 8 vs 8 pubs and work from there?

It will allow lesser players more breathing room from being a determent to other players in pubs. Making them less visible, although still target-able to anyone with eyes. The only real strategy involved will be attacking the window shoppers and players in the back, which is already the only things you really see in 8 vs 8 with little modding. It eliminates bait/camping since the attacks will come more frequently, so no time to dance around heavy damage/choke spots. It doesn't cure solo dolo rushing or stupidity, but at the very least, it adds more chaos into the standard VS we've become accustomed to for two games now.

Of course 8 vs 8 has to be forced for it to work long term. Initially, there will be an outcry for the old 4 vs 4 VS to come back, but like Valve has done with other things they refuse to change. I think refusing to change 8 vs 8 back to 4 vs 4 is a good step in the right direction. Let 4 vs 4 be something that has to be cooked up with cvar changes. The only way to make the community adapt is to force the chances on them, not giving them an A or B option. Only one option.

Also due to all the rage that won't change much from 2 to 3 no matter if Valve actually puts forth some effort into changing that aspect of the game or not. The bots will need to be better, as in picking up throwables and passing them off like pills, being sensible in close range affairs like popping boomers right after being vomitted, not healing unless they're black and white or like 30 hp at best, etc. They have to remove the placeholder aspect of them. They have to find a way to make them reliant on something other than nav mesh since its so painfully obvious in the first two games that they need it to move, which results in clunky movement behavior and stupid behavior in combat situations. For instance, they never look like they run at an actual human player's pace, like moonwalking if anything. Gotta be changed or improved in 3.

Of course, I can't see this as something that would ever fly in competitive L4D3 for that matter. But again, most of the coders will come out of the woodwork again to have a look at the 3rd game and decide whether they want to code for it or leave it behind for another game or use the trusty excuse of having a life or college to deal with because L4D3 feels more of the same.