Author Topic: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9  (Read 13475 times)

shade

Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2012, 11:21:48 am »
I'd agree with HR removal. I think it will create much more interesting gameplay without its existence. It's the same reason we removed T2 afaict (their DPS isn't a big issue on most rifles), the ranged clears make gameplay boring and frustrating. It removes a huge amount of positioning tactics and skill.

However, I don't agree on tank slowdown. People still wipe to tanks in meta all the time. It just takes thought and coordination from SI. In the wise words of purple "I've never found a place in L4D2 where I couldn't get a wipe with tank." As far as I can tell, it just makes it so teams who just think you can commit a tank and wipe with "pure skill" can do this more often.

And honestly, cut the "balance?" bullshit. This has nothing to do with balance. Survivor/infected nerfs and buffs are all about preferential gameplay. It has nothing to do with balance. These sarcastic calls of "This is balance?" are nothing more than derogatory rhetoric.
slowdown < jumprock

nemmy

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2012, 11:22:27 am »
So should we just give the tank hunting rifles like Killatoy suggests? We can do that.

This is pretty relevant to our argument.
I'm changing the subject right ?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 11:24:24 am by nemmy »

ProdigySim

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2012, 11:24:16 am »
That's a joke. Rhetoric if you will. You implied same class vs same class should be best, so why not just do ranged vs ranged? Give tanks hunting rifles and it's balanced.

shade

Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2012, 11:26:20 am »
last time i checked there is still uzi slowdown in l4d1 and double pistol (although not as much in this game, it is still there). if you want to do it t other SI that seems fine to me because the goal is to kill the other SI not slow them down. However, until the day comes where it becomes impossible to wipe teams with tanks the slowdown removal should not even be considered.

nemmy

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2012, 11:29:41 am »
last time i checked there is still uzi slowdown in l4d1 and double pistol (although not as much in this game, it is still there). if you want to do it t other SI that seems fine to me because the goal is to kill the other SI not slow them down. However, until the day comes where it becomes impossible to wipe teams with tanks the slowdown removal should not even be considered.
Agreed.
shade before this thread i was a little so/so on the subject of tank slow down..
but after taking into consideration what i've gathered from here.
take out HR - 4 normal guns
leave tank slow down in game.

shade

Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2012, 11:31:48 am »
also want to add that the game is probably more balanced now than it would be if you removed the slowdown. why? because it takes teamwork to take down a tank with SI and it takes teamwork for the SI/tank to wipe the survivors. what should define a good tank is his ability to corner and incap one early, or effectively flush his SI into booms / charges and stumbles. remove slowdown and you have a super longarm speed demon on you in the hard rain water areas, small rooms like dk4/parish4/ any small room.

shade

Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2012, 11:33:53 am »
Agreed.
shade before this thread i was a little so/so on the subject of tank slow down..
but after taking into consideration what i've gathered from here.
take out HR - 4 normal guns
leave tank slow down in game.
exactly why i thought that poll was a poor idea. you know what, everyone has played tank parish1 and dk 4 and no one likes being uzi slow'd down. however, im betting 90% of the ppl voting for slowdown removal have probably never played the game without it. tanks are still OP to survivors and if played correctly they can wipe in practically 80% (most of the time you arent going to wipe to tanks like the first finale tank of sf4, the first dt5 tank, but that seems fine considering there are still 2 more after that) of all tanks in any given time because of variables such as
jumprocks
hittables
rocktank if survs have low health
water slowdown on survivors
booms which bring in hordes which prohibit survivor movement
areas that the tank can flush them into chargers and gg pz (parish 2 event tank)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 11:37:34 am by shade »

nemmy

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2012, 11:44:31 am »
I must say.... nice input from shade
L4d1 tank slow down is much more less noticeable due to 4 shotguns, but the slow down is indeed there.
L4d2 there is much more in play [ie: water slow down(this is a big one) rocks/hittables /charges] so the slowdown should remain..
If i've learned anything here today it's remove tank slowdown from L4D1. GG no RE

Edit: actually i lied- all of l4d1 tank encounters are now fought in small rooms. leave the slow down.

Battle

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2012, 02:26:39 pm »
Any tank can wipe if given the right situation be it an eq tank or a meta tank, but one thing you also have to take into consideration when you look at this is what weapons are the survivors running, what area the tank is in what si support he has, there are many factors to look at and frankly i find alot of the argument against no tank slowdown to be too tunnel visioned without taking any of these into thought.

Silenced SMG - limited to 3 on metafogl (a start to stop teams rolling 4 smgs) still, 1100 damage per clip on a tank just by holding down the fire button so as a tank pushes in and calls for support hes dropped 3.3+K chip before even being close enough to smack anyone so when he does finally get a corner (more than likely thanks to his si support) hes virtually dead unless all 3 cappers have landed or a big boom has gone off.

I see tanks in the higher levels being killed reguardless of slowdown or not just as ive seen tanks reduced to a minor hindrance for one team while wiping the other with relative ease.

On removal of HR, we did it for obviously the awp/scout but its still a work in progress, yes the weapons are there but we are still running extensive testing on the weapons to find a more viable option to make them more usefull. As an awp/scout runner myself i will happily admit that it is indeed a very situational weapon as you lose alot of dps once the tank is commited due to the fire rates as a possible fix so to speak we have added a dps multiplayer to the scout vs tank (160dam per shot to tank, still 135 to all other si) Why i support the weapon is simple especially as ive had my poor ass dragged into meta/fresh games as of late where i see HR dropping 3k+ dam on a tank obviously this is exempt on maps with no hr spawn, or a hr spawn after the tank but even with 3 smgs the over all damage potential + slowdown makes most tanks nothing more than a 2minute annoyance.

In reguards to the removal of throwables, they werent taken out of eq to make life more difficult, if anything they were removed because frankly they arent needed how many times do you see a molly spawn after a tank fight for example. We are also looking into what todo in reguards to finales, we've still kept for example all of the fireworks etc on dark carni finale and with the help of lordnitro i am working on an entirely new parish finale as id like to get a bit of a shakedown in europe to get the finales played, as their all fixed and they add a bit more to the game, which is why we also implimented custom point scoring to certain maps (parish1/hardrain4) being the biggest reasons for this.

Adrenaline shots for me is still a touchy subject alot of people dont agree with the "artificial" aspect they give but im as much a fan of battering a tank with a meele and on the drugs so its not like the config is completely finalised yet either.

I apologise for the wall of text but i did jump into this discussion a little late and i did find it more polite to address some of the key areas in where the complaints/praises come from.
I have an accent, so i can say what i want

NF

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2012, 02:42:28 pm »
In reguards to the removal of throwables, they werent taken out of eq to make life more difficult, if anything they were removed because frankly they arent needed how many times do you see a molly spawn after a tank fight for example.

Mollies are useful outside of Tank fights. And just because it's not needed at the time doesn't mean that's a good reason to remove it. There's a lot of times where you find a set of pills but everyone is at high health anyway. Does that mean we should remove all pill spawns at the beginning of the map?

You could always nerf something too instead of outright removing it. For molotovs for example, you could reduce the size/duration of the fire so survivors couldn't light a tank as easily. Or make Tank have fire immunity for ~1 second from a molotov flame so a survivor would have to predict the Tank's movements better instead of the Tank getting lit by 1 pixel of flame.

Quote
Adrenaline shots for me is still a touchy subject alot of people dont agree with the "artificial" aspect they give but im as much a fan of battering a tank with a meele and on the drugs so its not like the config is completely finalised yet either.

"Artificial" aspect? I'm not sure I understand.

Regardless, I appreciate all the hard work config makers have put into the game. L4D2 would be a lot more inactive without you.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 02:44:28 pm by NF »

Battle

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2012, 03:32:39 pm »
Artificial is the term thats used on this side of the pond for the effect it gives you, aka the massive speed buff for example.

Personally i think throwables are relatively pointless not just spawn locations of them in relivance to where tanks spawn but referencing them to pills isnt something i would have used in my argument as the they are 2 seperate entities hard rain 2+ makes a molly completely useless for example because of all the water but there is also alot of contradiction in some of the arguments made, examples

I dont want the moustachio gong removed for dark carni 4 because i want my free horde with the tank but i want the event on on DT4 changed so when i have to play survivor i dont have to deal with all the commons.

Its a double edged sword no matter which way you look at it in many situations removing elements of the game in one config may increase the pace (removing natties) but can also slow it down (bleed tanks) finding balance is extremely difficult and in all honesty i dont think you can ever reach "True" balance with a game like l4d2 there are far too many factors to consider when looking at it all the config makers can do is try shit out and see what comes of it i play both meta and eq im fond of both configs for what they bring to the table but obviously opinions will always differ.
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nemmy

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2012, 04:47:29 pm »
When I originally created this thread I was entirely for removing tank slow down.
Then I took into consideration what people had to say and felt they indeed had a point and tank slow down DID NOT need to be removed....
As I’m sitting here at work I was reading over the thread a bit more carefully I came to the realization that…
Some L4D2 tank encounter requires slow down (MOST DON’T) – but how do we define when or when we don’t need it ? either remove it entirely or keep it. And in my honest opinion
It needs to go. Most encounters can be fought in open areas where survivors have more than enough room to kite/run around.
ANY L4D1 tank encounter does not require slow down.
 
REMEMBER THIS ISN’T STRICTLY ONE SIDED
IM LOOKING AT THIS FROM BOTH PERSPECTIVES BUT MOSTLY SURVIVOR SIDE BECAUSE INF WILL BE GETTING A PRETTY HEFTY BUFF FROM THIS.
MOSTLY SURVIVOR JUKEABILITY (PROPS, MAP LAYOUT ETC) – BECAUSE THE TANK WILL MOST LIKELY CATCH UP TO YOU ANYWAY
If you happen to be the survivor the tank chooses then it's up to your team to
A. shoot tank
B. clear stuff

If you feel you cannot juke tank in these given situations you are either
1 not paying any fucking attention what so ever.
2 you are way too fucking close to begin with
3 you should find a new game.
 
I also wanted to create a list of the tank encounters for reference. And because I’m bored at work.
 
Bloodharvest
BH1 – TANK USUALLY FOUGHT OUT IN FONT OF TRAILER OR SURVIVIORS CAN PUSH UP. Easily juked no slow down required.
BH2 – TANK IS USUALLY FOUGHT IN RAFTERS – EVEN IF LATE SPAWN ITS TAKEN BACK. Still no slow down required.
BH3 – TANK IS USUALLY FOUGHT OUT IN THE OPEN – LATE SPAWN = RUN BACK to wide open hill area – no slow required.
BH4 - TANK IS USUALLY FOUGHT INSIDE WAREHOUSE – plenty of tables and stuff to juke around. Still need slow down ?
BH5 – TANK IS FOUGHT OUTISIDE OF EVENT HOUSE – no fucking slow down needed
 
Deathtoll
DT1 – TANK IS FOUGHT IN TUNNLES OR ON THE BRIDGE(JUST OUTSIDE OF SAFE ROOM) – NO SLOW DOWN NEEDED
DT2 – TANK CAN BE FOUGHT IN 2ND CIRCULAR ROOM IN THE UPPER AREA – NO SLOW DOWN REQUIRED
DT3 – MASSIVE WIDE OPEN MAP TANK CAN BE FOUGHT IN 3 PLACES – NO SLOW DOWN REQUIRED
DT4 – AGAIN NO SLOW REQUIRED TANK IS FOUGHT OUT IN OPEN
DT5 –  SAME THING FUCKERS – JUKE TANK IF NOT YOU DIE
 
Deadair
DA1 – TANK IS FOUGHT IN GREEN HOUSE – NO SLOW
DA2 – TANK CAN BE FOUGHT IN CRANE AREA (before or after event) – NO SLOW DOWN (REMEMBER NOT TO JUMP ;) )
DA3 – TANK CAN BE FOUGHT IN CONSTRUCTION AREA, GENERATOR AREA, OR WRECKED PLANE AREA – AGAIN…NO SLOW IS REQUIRED.
DA4 - TANK CAN BE FOUGHT NEAR CRESENDO VAN – NO SLOW DOWN REQUIRED.
DA5 – WIDE OPEN MAP TANK SLOW DOWN NOT REQUIRED.
 
Nomercy
NM1 – THERE MAY BE AN ISSUE HERE WITH EARLY TANK SPAWNS, BUT IF YOU GET THE SECOND TANK SPAWN AND ARE ABLE TO MOVE OUT INTO THE STREET THE TANK CAN EASILY BE FOUGHT IN THE FENCED AREA(tank has at the very minimum two hittables to work with) NO SLOW IS REQUIRED.
*for no mercy1 maybe we can implement a static tank so tank is always fought in street.
NM2 – TANK CAN BE FOUGHT IN TOOK BOOTH AREA, A LOT OF STUFF TO JUKE AROUND(FOR SURVIVORS) – I STILL BELIEVE NO SLOW IS REQUIRED
NM3 – CAN BE FOUGHT NEAR EXPLODING GAS STATION – IF LATE TANK SPAWN TAKE IT BACK LIKE YOU ALREADY DO FOR  BH3 and HR4
NM4 – TANK CAN BE FOUGHT ON THE NEXT FLOOR UP AFTER LEAVING SAFE ROOM AREA (IDK WHAT TO CALL THIS) – STILL REQUIRES NO SLOW
NM5 – NO SLOW NEEDED FFS
 
 
L4D2 MAPS
I wanted to start this section off by saying shades argument of water slowdown is irrelevant because, the one occasion where I can think of water slow down on a survivor being an issue is HR4
And even then the tank is taken back to the start of the map and fought on the roof. Where slow down is irrelevant entirely.
 
Lets begin.
 
deadcenter
DC1 – tank slow required – small narrow corridors no survivor jukeability
Dc2 – plenty of places to fight tank – no slow required
Dc3 – plenty of places to juke around – no slow required
Dc4 – opening tank will require slow because of minimal survivor jukeability – next two will not (don’t know how to find a viable solution for this )
 
theparish
Tp1 – requires tank slowdown – small map, small areas obviously not much to juke around
Tp2 – no slow required plenty of open places to fight tank
Tp3 – again wide fucking open, why do we need tank slow again ?
Tp4 – opening tank may require slow down, later tanks will not (don’t know how to find a viable solution for this)
Tp5 – fuck if I know this map is just garbage in general
 
darkcarn
Dk1 – many places to fight tank and juke I still believe no slow is required.
Dk2 – plenty of open areas still capable of juking no slow is required
Dk3 - may be an issue unless fought in generator room where again, no slow is needed
Dk4 – no slow needed too open
Dk5 - no slow fucking needed ffs
 
hardrain
HR1 – no slow down required – too many open areas to fight tank
HR2 – no slow required – early tank has big enough area to engage tank, second area in front of ducatel station is large enough to kite/juke
HR3 – opening tank does not require slow, sugar co tank does not require slow
Hr4 - refer to opening statement – tank is fought on roof.
Hr5 – requires slow because idk any other solution to small map and water everywhere. No survivor jukability.
 
As for swamp
Water slow down is hardly an issue with most tank encounters on this campaign ..tanks are fought in fairly open places with plenty of survivor jukeability.



I'm just putting this out there - it doesn't have to be right or wrong.
you may agree you may disagree but any criticism would help.
just remember which perspective i took these from (survivor)
Quote
IM LOOKING AT THIS FROM BOTH PERSPECTIVES BUT MOSTLY SURVIVOR SIDE BECAUSE INF WILL BE GETTING A PRETTY HEFTY BUFF FROM THIS.
MOSTLY SURVIVOR JUKEABILITY (PROPS, MAP LAYOUT ETC) – BECAUSE THE TANK WILL MOST LIKELY CATCH UP TO YOU ANYWAY

NF

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2012, 05:07:04 pm »
Artificial is the term thats used on this side of the pond for the effect it gives you, aka the massive speed buff for example.

So it was removed because you get a speed buff? Isn't that the point though? I've never heard anyone once complain about adrenaline. It's not like it's overpowered - people usually take pills anyway given the choice.

Quote
Personally i think throwables are relatively pointless not just spawn locations of them in relivance to where tanks spawn but referencing them to pills isnt something i would have used in my argument as the they are 2 seperate entities hard rain 2+ makes a molly completely useless for example because of all the water but there is also alot of contradiction in some of the arguments made, examples

So molotov usefulness is decreased on a map or two because of water. So what? Don't pick up the molotov if you don't want it then. That's only a couple maps out of like 50. If they're as pointless as you claim then I see no problem in re-adding them. =\

Quote
I dont want the moustachio gong removed for dark carni 4 because i want my free horde with the tank but i want the event on on DT4 changed so when i have to play survivor i dont have to deal with all the commons.

Moustachio is not even close to being a "free horde". If survivors let Tank waltz in and hit the button without any retaliation then it's their fault. It's an extra gameplay element that makes that Tank fight more interesting and less one dimensional. It's also the only thing in the game that infected have control over - L4D2 is basically an entirely survivor oriented game.

And comparing the moustachio horde to the DT4 horde doesn't make any sense. They're not similar in any way except that there's commons.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 05:13:22 pm by NF »

Cheesy

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2012, 05:45:13 pm »
I bet if you asked everyone who wants tank slowdown to stay how many games of EQ they have played. It would probably be from 0-1.

Maybe someone should see if it's possible to reduce slowdown on tank from uzis by 50%.

If that is not possible, limit uzi to 2, and remove hr.

Also I feel like we should increase shotgun damage to tank. Anyone who has ever played l4d1 can tell you the tank dies in 5 seconds from 4 pump shotguns. Yet that doesn't seem to be the case in l4d2. It's some weird shit like half the pellets miss in l4d2 if you aren't touching him.

nutman

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2012, 06:18:21 pm »
played 4 games of EQ and it ends up just being decided by who can run past a tank one map. my good friend cynister shade can attest to this.

some of the ideas are interesting, but overall I dislike them. Metafogl is fine. I don't think there are many (if any) situations where the worse team beats the better team. I guess we still have the issue of HR4, but nothing EQ does is fixing that. If anything it exacerbates it because of the constant wipes and artificially close scores related to that.

if you really think slowdown is a problem then I would be for limiting uzis to 2. 2 uzis and having to reload them would leave a lot less super-slowdown situations that you see now with 3-4.

 

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