Author Topic: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9  (Read 13467 times)

nemmy

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EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« on: January 28, 2012, 09:32:47 am »
My thoughts on Equilibrium 1.0  versus Metafogl 7.9.
Keep in mind I’m only looking for balance here, and if you do not have something productive to say you will be banned from the forum.
I understand Metafogl is the preferred config of the two, but after recently playing plenty of scrims between both - I have taken a great liking into EQ
I believe the biggest argument between the two configs is tank slowdown.
Announcing tank spawn at the beginning of the round is only fair for team 1 (and doesn’t really seem like an issue to me) whereas team 2 would already know where tank spawns so they have free reign to rush the shit out of the map until tank spawns. Agreed?
 
Now here is the big issue – tank slow down.
 
I think it’s pretty safe to say any experienced survivor team will not wipe to normal SI attacks, whereas a tank fight can entirely change that –  we’ll call this the game changer.
That being said…
I remember when melee’s were nerfed for survivors in l4d1, there was a big fuss about it – nobody liked it and wanted it returned to it’s normal value of 5 melees.
After no time at all(within the month of the configs release – just before the ID League tournament) survivors had already adapted to the change and survivor gameplay had significantly changed IMHO.
My point being – people adapted and now it’s accepted.
 
There have been plenty of survivor nerfs throughout the history of l4d2 – keep in mind we’re trying to achieve balance here.
How is it fair that a survivor can outrun a tank with their Uzi AND still be railed by a hunting rifle.
With four normal guns and no tank slow down I think this is the balance we need
Requiring your skill of fending off SI (or CI for that matter), while avoiding and shooting the tank to be on point.
 
I also love that there is no HR…
Which SI can zoom in across the map and one shot a survivor? How is this fair ?
Which SI can chip survivors as they’re back peddling their way to funkytown ?? How is this balanced ?
Nerf is needed – aka remove HR.
Replace the HR runner on a survivor team with a normal gun and you have…
1. Another gun on the tank
2. A player who can now defend themselves from an SI attack
3. Tanks being able to engage survivors will a full slate of health instead of being chipped on the way in and having 1k~ less health when finally engaging the survivors for the first time. (this is balance to you?)
 
And finally…
with the changes stated above you are no longer required to have a weapon or a melee limit.
In fact, I believe implementing said changes would give much more reason to allow 4 melees.
Do not get me wrong here I am in no way condescending against Metafogl AT ALL – it has added more balance to the game if anything.
 
SO….
 
What’s the issue here?
Implementing something that may potentially cause more survivor wipes?
And you call yourselves professionals.
Any REAL professional gamer would come here and die of laughter.
Discuss.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 10:28:04 am by nemmy »

eclip5e

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2012, 09:46:40 am »
no reason to take awp. Forgot how ridiculous 4 uzis were.

mads-wm3

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2012, 09:53:37 am »
I remember when melee’s were nerfed for survivors in l4d1, there was a big fuss about it – nobody liked it and wanted it returned to it’s normal value of 5 melees.

 
There have been plenty of survivor nerfs throughout the history of l4d2 – keep in mind we’re trying to achieve balance here.
How is it fair that a survivor can outrun a tank with their Uzi AND still be railed by a hunting rifle.
With four normal guns and no tank slow down I think this is the balance we need
Requiring your skill of fending off SI (or CI for that matter), while avoiding and shooting the tank to be on point.
 

Can't say how it was in NA, but in EU most players were happy to have the m2ing reduced, it only took like a week or two before most servers ran HC rotoblin.


I support the idea of removing the tank slowdown, it's silly, especially in l4d2 where it's common to have 3 uzis and one HR... Tanks are often handled with only shotguns in l4d1 which means no slow down, and that doesn't mean that every tank is a wipe... not at all. So ya, remove slowdown.


for HR: it should honestly just be nerfed to the state it was in l4d1 before l4d2 came out... It actually took aim to kill things with it, now you can just run and spam at the same time, and still shut down any infected. So yeah, I think the old HR spread would be cool, it would still be a tool to fight the tank too.

nemmy

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2012, 10:06:16 am »
for HR: it should honestly just be nerfed to the state it was in l4d1 before l4d2 came out... It actually took aim to kill things with it, now you can just run and spam at the same time, and still shut down any infected. So yeah, I think the old HR spread would be cool, it would still be a tool to fight the tank too.

I agree that the hunting rifle spread should've never been altered, but survivors already have the advantage as it is...
What reasoning is there to keep a long range weapon when only one side has access to this long range ability? (think of it as a skill or an ability in a pvp situation and not a weapon shooting bullets for one moment)
Take it out and give them a normal gun...

Blade

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2012, 10:07:45 am »

SO….
 
What’s the issue here?
Implementing something that may potentially cause more survivor wipes?
And you call yourselves professionals.
Any REAL professional gamer would come here and die of laughter.
Discuss.

This game is 20 billion times different in terms of a competitive...everything. So it has to be approached differently.

The additional SI causes a lot of problems in terms of balancing things, from when I watched a lot of Deathwish. In L4D1 you can move to any big open map that the game has to offer, because there is only 1 SI that can make you backtrack. The others pin you in place, and since everyone runs 4 shotguns, it's not a stretch to say that at least 50% of a L4D1 SI attack can be cleared relatively easily.

In L4D2, there are some glaring differences. Getting to better surroundings is harder because there are 2 extra SI that can move a survivor. One having 600 HP. Some maps have just plain shitty open areas. Teams rely on the slowdown so they don't get pinned in a small room by the tank.

Slowdown should be removed on all other SI at least to start. But as for tank I'm not entirely sure how to approach it.

Also there is no 7.9. Jacob is going from 7.8 to 8.0.

nemmy

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2012, 10:19:49 am »
I thought it was 7.8, but i saw the poll thread for 8.0 and figured 7.9 but that's irrelevant .... we all know what i'm talking about here...

Sure a jockey and charger can move a survivor...
but a charger will eventually kill them whereas a jockey unlatches and can go on his jolly way and try to cap another survivor.

Maybe we can nerf the chargers health down to 400~ it's a nice mean between a hunters 250 and the chargers 600 this will give any non HR runner slightly more ability to clear.

This will also add more strategy to chargers..
No more hurr durr ima chargin mah charger.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 10:30:19 am by nemmy »

NF

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2012, 10:41:23 am »
I also love that there is no HR…
Which SI can zoom in across the map and one shot a survivor? How is this fair ?
Which SI can chip survivors as they’re back peddling their way to funkytown ?? How is this balanced ?

wut

There's still the AWP which can do those things you just mentioned. IMO all snipers should be removed, so if someone separates they can actually be punished for it instead of being instacleared. either that or remove glows so it's not as easy.

Quote
(this is balance to you?)

There's no real way to balance L4D2 because the sides are completely different. You can make things more challenging for survivors sure, but what defines "balance"? The problem with L4D2 is the gameplay doesn't scale with skill level. In games like Quake the game is balanced whether you're good or bad. In L4D2 the survivor play gets better and better but the infected doesn't improve as much, which is why you have to nerf survivors only all the time to make it more "even"
 
Quote
with the changes stated above you are no longer required to have a weapon or a melee limit.

4 uzis sucks :(
 
Quote
What’s the issue here?
Implementing something that may potentially cause more survivor wipes?
And you call yourselves professionals.
Any REAL professional gamer would come here and die of laughter.
Discuss.

any professional gamer would laugh at l4d2 because it's built around randomness, not because of something relatively trivial like the config used. Confogl fixes a lot of the random things but there's still a lot left (random tank punches and rocks for example)

Quote
What reasoning is there to keep a long range weapon when only one side has access to this long range ability?

using that logic the tank should be removed too because only one side has access to hitting a car. if you look at it from that perspective then the only way to make it "balanced" would be to remove SI period and make it survivor vs survivor. lol.


One thing I hate about eq though it it's following the trend of removing EVERYTHING from the game. What the fuck is the point of removing adrenaline? And bile? As if survivor play wasn't stale enough as it is. Now there's basically no reason to explore any rooms or anything at all, just run in a straight line the whole time through the map and that's it.

No pipe bombs, no molotovs, no bile, no gas cans, no propane, no oxygen tanks, no adrenaline, final destination. oh and no finales too! (lol europe) The only things that should be removed in my opinion (other than the obviously overpowered things like tier 2s) should be natural hordes and snipers. I'd support that medkit config that prodigy and canada made too if it was more popular.

purple

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2012, 10:43:05 am »
The problem with tank slowdown removal is that it takes the current meta-game of down 1 survivor and then send in tri cap and makes it really really easy. 

L4D1 tank plays completely different than L4D2 (there is also subtle shotgun slowdown in L4D1 that can result in a missed punch or two).  L4D1 tanks are all about spreading the damage whereas L4D2 is getting that one incap and sending in SI on the last 3 survivors. 

Honestly the problem with L4D2 is that all the SI but the smoker require you to be in point-blank survivor range and with the maps being so open and most survivors taking uzis SI have trouble just getting in. 

I played a scrim yesterday on Deathtoll in L4D2 with L4D1 players and the entire time was just them qqing about the hr.  Hr removal is fine and probably at this point in the game needed.  Tbh though the awp and scout are not very useful and I don't think we will see a lot of use of them in the EQ cup, I could be wrong though. 

So all in all I would say remove Hr and limit uzis to 2.

nemmy

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2012, 10:47:47 am »
NF - can a survivor not move out of the way of a hittable car ?
My point being, any ability that SI has, survivor should have a counter to it..
EX: survivors can counter a long range rock with their gun.
EX: car flying at your face move out of the way.
EX: cut smoker tongue
EX: m2 hunter
EX: level charger
the list goes on...


what does SI do to counter a railgun at 100+ yards away ?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 10:50:14 am by nemmy »

NF

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2012, 10:51:34 am »
NF - can a survivor not move out of the way of a hittable car ?
My point being, any ability that SI has, survivor should have a counter to it..
EX: survivors can counter a long range rock with their gun.
EX: car flying at your face move out of the way.
EX: cut smoker tongue
EX: m2 hunter
EX: level charger
the list goes on...


what does SI do to counter a railgun at 100+ yards away ?

I see your point now. I agree with that, snipers shouldn't be in the game.


Quote
Maybe we can nerf the chargers health down to 400~ it's a nice mean between a hunters 250 and the chargers 600 this will give any non HR runner slightly more ability to clear.

This will also add more strategy to chargers..

I think if we wanted to nerf chargers, then the standup time after being charged should be lessened. Basically the only way to do real damage outside of Tank is with charge spits. The metagame has turned into "ok every SI go in and distract and generally be useless just so this charge can land". If we made spit charge not as useful and maybe buffed the other SI to compensate for that it would be better. That way every SI is useful and not just distraction fodder.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 10:54:11 am by NF »

ProdigySim

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2012, 10:58:12 am »
I'd agree with HR removal. I think it will create much more interesting gameplay without its existence. It's the same reason we removed T2 afaict (their DPS isn't a big issue on most rifles), the ranged clears make gameplay boring and frustrating. It removes a huge amount of positioning tactics and skill.

However, I don't agree on tank slowdown. People still wipe to tanks in meta all the time. It just takes thought and coordination from SI. In the wise words of purple "I've never found a place in L4D2 where I couldn't get a wipe with tank." As far as I can tell, it just makes it so teams who just think you can commit a tank and wipe with "pure skill" can do this more often.

And honestly, cut the "balance?" bullshit. This has nothing to do with balance. Survivor/infected nerfs and buffs are all about preferential gameplay. It has nothing to do with balance. These sarcastic calls of "This is balance?" are nothing more than derogatory rhetoric.

nemmy

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2012, 11:05:09 am »
And honestly, cut the "balance?" bullshit. This has nothing to do with balance. Survivor/infected nerfs and buffs are all about preferential gameplay. It has nothing to do with balance. These sarcastic calls of "This is balance?" are nothing more than derogatory rhetoric.

In no way am I trying to be derogatory, sir.
My argument of balance was to look at each game mechanic as a PvP skill or ability.
Normally you wouldn't put up a melee class against a ranged class - my thoughts
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 11:06:46 am by nemmy »

ProdigySim

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2012, 11:09:42 am »
In no way am I trying to be derogatory, sir.
My argument of balance was to look at each game mechanic as a PvP skill or ability.
Normally you wouldn't put up a melee class against a ranged class - my thoughts
So should we just give the tank hunting rifles like Killatoy suggests? We can do that.

Every single game with multiple classes of characters has different types facing off in PVP. You can't look at one tiny microcosm of the game and claim that balance needs to apply at this level. Balance is looked at on a game to game basis.

"Tanks are OP in starcraft because they kill infantry units too well. This is not balance."

nemmy

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2012, 11:18:40 am »
So should we just give the tank hunting rifles like Killatoy suggests? We can do that.

Every single game with multiple classes of characters has different types facing off in PVP. You can't look at one tiny microcosm of the game and claim that balance needs to apply at this level. Balance is looked at on a game to game basis.

"Tanks are OP in starcraft because they kill infantry units too well. This is not balance."

Prodigy?
Hello?
Are we talking about the same thing here ?
You can either.
1 - Remove HR - leave slow down.
2 - Leave HR - remove slow down.
Seems simple enough to me.

ProdigySim

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Re: EQ 1.0 vs Metafogl 7.9
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2012, 11:20:29 am »
Are you saying my comments were non-sequitor or what? I'm pretty sure what we're doing is argument, and now what you're doing is changing the subject.

 

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