Author Topic: Broken rules and unfair treatment.  (Read 7970 times)

sinclair

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2014, 02:50:44 pm »
Americans always use the server that hurts the opponents the most, I think EU teams just need to start using Moscow servers in order to balance the away games.


 :D


yet again this rule system about choseing ur homeserver is obviosuly broken. Now i know that team apollyon dont agree on this. but you dont have to be a rocket scientist, to see that they wanted us to have a bad a ping as possible, we ping around 170 ping to dallas server. why do i know they did this intentionally? cuz the after second crash we go on chicago server. EVERY single one of team apollyon ping EVEN better to chicago server than dallas. but we ping 40-50 less to that srever than dallas. which is fair?? or?? so okay, we pretend we died on both tanks with 4 fast survivors and 4 set of pills. what are the chances that we get wiped at both tanks? a tricap would be needed for that. and how often does that land in open areas as both tanks were. so
i am 100% sure that they wanted us to ping as bad as possible. when we go to play the EU server. they are not gonna ping 170 to EU server. they ping around what would do to NY server 100-110. which makes a huge difference and favor team apollyon.
it comes down to this, for furture games FIX these flaws in home server advantages, cuz team apollyon took great advantage of that. 60 ping diff makes a huge difference. and how can we just get deflose because one admins thinks so?? I think this shows a little bit of admins favoring the american teams and lack of carrying about choseing the most fair solution.

team apollyon has 3 members from california, one from maryland, one from michican and another on the east coast. regardless as to who plays the match they can't get away with not having one of the cali players in the match so if you are telling me the player from california pinged better to chicago than dallas thats funny, same thing w/ ny. dallas and chi are in the middle of the country so it makes the most sense, it isn't like they forced u to play on a west coast server.

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A fair solution would had been to give us that 300-400 distance. the americans would be going to EU games with 600-700 points ahead with ping no higher than around 100. and we played with 170???? how can this be a fair treatment???
and this is where i add my 2 cents in. sorry but this whole ordeal is stupid. if its really true dena or whoever said take the ffwin u guys are 100% at fault. once the server crashed the second time what SHOULD have happened was you play out your home server and only replay the finale if it comes down to it. apollyon did not have a significant lead i seriously cannot conceive why you opted not to play the 2nd match right then and there, everyone i was watching the match with agreed you guys were on your way to win

estoopi

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2014, 03:05:23 pm »
This is expanding on something Innox mentioned:

I do think it makes sense for a team to be allowed to have multiple home servers because:

1. We don't have that many servers to chose from and Home Server "A" might be completely taken up and Home Server "B" might need to be used.

2. Home Server "A" might work better for a certain combo of team members and Home Server "B" might be ideal for another group of team members.

Considering that, my question:

Does anyone see an issue with enforcing that each team gets to chose the home server that their opponents use?

I do. What if in Apollyon's case, all the West coast players could play in the match, but they were forced to use the Chicago server because BedTime would obviously prefer that one.  That's not cool.

.. I answered my own question, but thought it was a good ... thought.



In the end, we would like to have everyone just be considerate enough to "mirror pings"...  but It's hard to enforce and it requires admins to jump between servers all the time and wait for the teams to load up and look at the pings to make sure everything's ok.  That's too much time for an admin to commit to in my opinion.  I wouldn't want an admin (or myself) doing that... at least not more than once or twice.

Sam

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2014, 03:13:45 pm »
pretty much only read first post, but i think that servers should be forced to ny or chicago at least when playing euros. this is coming from someone who lives in sf i might add.

hib

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2014, 03:15:59 pm »
My offer to team Bedtime
So on behalf of Apollyon, I'd like to share somethings that Innox and Anussir failed to mention.

The day before the Apollyon vs. Bedtime match, I personally went to DPI mumble to offer team Bedtime if they would like to play 1 match in a New York server instead of 2 with the condition that we use 3 west players and Grizz would play the match, 3 west players (california) would include myself, acer, and bAD.

My ping to NY server is usually from 110-125 ping, similar to what my teammates acer and bad would get and grizz would have around ~35 ping. Team Bedtime, would ping around ~115-120ish ping which would be the closest to fair ping comparison. It also equalizes the tickrate at 60 for both sides, meaning change of tickrate would not influence hit registry in any way.

Team Bedtime, refused to accept my offer and said "We would rather play 2 games instead of 1 because this is an international Tournament". Just before I left mumble, I told them, we should check pings and agree to what server to use before we played our matches, which was not done by both teams.

Regarding Player and Server Selection
Acer, Bad, hib = west coast in california
Grizz, MrDoodlebugs, Lust = east coast

The reason why Dallas was chosen was because our players were not sure how long 2 of us could play. Since we were unsure, we decided to choose Dallas server which is overall the best server for all of our players in our team. Also, I need to state that we have been using the Dallas server for our previous matches, and decided that it is more comfortable to play on, but due to the fact that we cannot edit the team rosters/server selections, there's nothing much we can do.

Dena or another member of team Bedtime, tried to ask an admin (and if he didn't tried to make us use the same players for both matches). Now my respond to this is, we registered a diverse roster not to try to get a ping advantage but because we are simply people who get along who play the game. Now then, you are telling us that we should be "limited" on who we should use depending on who we used for the first match. Well let me tell you this, acer had something to do the following day of the match and was only able to stay for the first match, so a definite sub would have been established. What I'm trying to say is that, there is a reason why we have "subs" and a roster, we are not breaking any rules of any sort so this is deemed legal.

Also, I'd like to add this, both me and bAD were "scheduled" to play for the EU game. As dena/Anussir said, "That's stupid, why would you guys use high ping players on EU server?"
My response: because we don't care, we just play the game, high ping or low, we played vs. Australian team with Grizz having up to ~288+ ping and he did not make a fuss about it. Also, if I recall correctly, doodlebugs did the same. The Australian team also played with 200+ ping on Dallas (we could have possibly played LA server, but it was not listed as our "home server" so they followed the rules).

Regarding the match that occured (crashes and etc)
So team Bedtime decided to schedule the match at the time they felt was reasonable for them @ 1pm pac / 4pm est.
On the occurrence of the first crash, team Bedtime offered team Apollyon a "hypothetical wipe"  and team Apollyon offered a replay of the map, but was denied by team Bedtime due to Anussir having lack of time because he had work in the morning, so team Apollyon accepted the "hypothetical wipe".

On the finale, the tank was killed quite well by team Bedtime, but was later "screwed" over by the server crashing yet again. Again team Apollyon offered a replay of the map, because the 2nd tank did not spawn and who knows what possible damage could have occured. Since we do not have anything to "server doctor back to the event which the server crashed" there was nothing to be done except for a replay for team Bedtime's survivor play.

Team bedtime requested "hypothetical bonus" but the fact that the 2nd tank had not spawned and an event and SI attacks were laid out of the equation, I don't think it was reasonable to give free bonus to a team.

I appreciate you guys reading this, If you have any questions regarding anything else, feel free to post and ask.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 03:20:05 pm by hib »

hib

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2014, 03:22:31 pm »
Well for what it's worth, I think most of the rest of the community would have liked to see your match and would be perfectly happy to watch you beat Apollyon. It's very disappointing that this match won't happen.

Highly doubtful, some EU teams are notoriously known to be uber cocky, and throw away any type of advantage they have.
example: the EU tournament that me, bAD and Grizz won.

And as cocky as this may sound, I'm sure I could have stepped in with bAD and would have made a significant difference, due to I had much more map knowledge and experience playing the map. Also, I have the most experience playing with high ping in comparison to almost all players (this was after, the brazilians like ohzy and duma stopped playing). If you want to "map" out how well I could have possibly done, check out the Australian game I played.

In general the entire system of home/away games as it is and the fact that teams can use multiple servers as their home server.
If an extra rule is included where it states that the pings have to be  mirrored or as least be in a 10-20 ms range of difference that would make for a much more enjoyable and drama free experience for all.
That's only my opinion on the whole thing though I am sure a big part of the community would agree with this.

I suppose my offer for playing 1 match on NY wasn't enough for you? Even though it was by the far the closest to fair ping comparison with the exception of 1 player.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 03:31:38 pm by hib »

hib

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2014, 03:24:16 pm »
sorry for double post
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 03:28:21 pm by hib »

KiLLaToY

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2014, 03:29:27 pm »
I am going to show how long my penis is.

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ProdigySim

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2014, 03:30:41 pm »
Highly doubtful, some EU teams are notoriously known to be uber cocky, and throw away any type of advantage they have.
example: the EU tournament that me, bAD and Grizz won.

I don't think I made any claims about who would actually win. Just trying to paint a picture that nobody was really interested in seeing the match FFW for apollyon, regardless of what the outcome would have been.

hib

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2014, 03:33:13 pm »
@Prodigy, yeah I understand, I was also looking forward in playing the 2nd match, but unfortunately they decided the option to Forfeit. They could have also played the day after, since the deadline was Sunday (correct me if I'm wrong).

innox

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2014, 03:34:21 pm »
Then if we agreed to playing one game on NY then it wouldn't be different than any other NA based cup we have played ?
The whole point of the tournament being international with home/away games in my eyes is to have a "home field advantage" if you will.
But you mean to tell me that you wouldn't have used the easy coast players in the EU game ? Cute.
Even if 2 people from west coast and 2 people from east coast played in the EU game that would still mean the average ping that you guys would have gotten would have been close to what we get to Chicago, but in no way the same as Dallas as you would need 4x180 ms to have the same as us.
And we decided to not check the NA servers because we didn't believe someone would ever think of getting advantage over others by such means, and that when you said we have to play Dallas it was a reasonable decision your team had made considering the 2 games had to be fair.

Rails

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2014, 03:47:43 pm »
Thank you to hib for his post.

I think international tournament matches with a home and away server are a completely ineffective system for tournament/international play, that's why RBT was North American based. There was a huge outcry at the start over the fact there weren't 2 servers involved for matches, but I honestly see no reason to run an international 2-server based tournament after CCT3, and here's why:

1) Lack of presence from the scenes outside of North America in this international tournament.

2) North American teams being deterred and not wanting to play two games, which is why some didn't participate in CCT3.

3) The behavior of some of the international, non NA teams in this tournament thus far.

To expand on my third point:

I literally got team * and Diplomacy on a NY server where the pings were almost exactly balanced, yet team * wanted to still play two matches.

I suggested team Minverva and team Revelation play on a Euro server 1 game, yet the Russians wanted 2 matches before raging off their home server when they couldn't destroy Revelation at home as hard as Revelation destroyed them on the US server.

I've heard countless arguments such as Bed Time's over server positioning, yet if what Hib said is true, then they did the same thing I complained about *'s doing.

I'm going to be extremely draconian about this, but here are the facts, people:

The NA scene is far more active and welcoming of international participation at the current moment than the EU scene, which, according to another long and drawn out thread on here, is a PUGland at the moment. The South Americans in this tournament have Dallas listed as their home servers. The Australians have been extremely determined to overcome their ping disadvantages to play in the North American tournaments due to their scene being extremely small. Team NV came to America and won on an LA server to take the NA based RBT.

What's the solution if we want to find balanced systems? One game on a balanced server. There is no way to get a completely balanced game, and the closest you're going to get is finding a server which has the pings balanced as close to equally as possible. I truly hope this is the last tournament with the home/away server rule, because it would've made much more sense for all of these conflicts to be played on as close to equal server as possible instead of this being a contest of "who can play the best when given the ping advantage", because in my opinion as a player and an administrator, that system sucks.

In no way am I discouraging international participation, but I just have a gut feeling we could be going about this in a much smarter and less time consuming way. RU vs US plays 1 game on an EU server; west coast US vs EU plays 1 game NY; Australian vs US finds a server where both teams have equal ping geographically; the Asian community doesn't exist in this tourney; so on, so forth. If I end up adminning the next major NA tournament, that'll be the system I vouch for. No more of this 2 server silliness.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 03:50:10 pm by Rails »
I look forward to this post being taken down so that you can continue running a corrupt system for a game that has less teams then I can count with one hand.

Anussir

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2014, 03:48:04 pm »
Highly doubtful, some EU teams are notoriously known to be uber cocky, and throw away any type of advantage they have.
example: the EU tournament that me, bAD and Grizz won.

And as cocky as this may sound, I'm sure I could have stepped in with bAD and would have made a significant difference, due to I had much more map knowledge and experience playing the map. Also, I have the most experience playing with high ping in comparison to almost all players (this was after, the brazilians like ohzy and duma stopped playing). If you want to "map" out how well I could have possibly done, check out the Australian game I played.

I suppose my offer for playing 1 match on NY wasn't enough for you? Even though it was by the far the closest to fair ping comparison with the exception of 1 player.

I have to say HIB from the looks on your map 4 and map 5 play. which is pretty sure the reason why u got wipe. u sure did not have any clue what so ever, where to stay and fight the horde and tank. but after we had to replay this map again. you knew our strats where we were gonna stay etc. and TBH i dont really think its relavent to mention where ur players are from in gerneal. the fact is that u had 4 people playing that had even better ping to chicago. so where as the rest of ur team is from is irrelavent. and like what innox said, agreeing to a match on NY? its international, and no matter what u will still have a considerably better ping than us, not talking of grizz which wil lping like 20-30 since he lives in NY? and having this kinda of low ping. against players with such a high ping. is a HUGE advantage.

Peace out this is getting nowwhere. if people cannot see the broken rules is outright stupid. Rails told me these rules were not made for this cup. so what to expect. well then next time we will add an russian player in our team and go russian server. which is perfectly fine and legit.


and saying that u only care about playing?? come on hib. then u would had given us those silly 300 points and gone to play on EU with 70 less ping that what we played with. its funny since doodle agreed but grizz put him down. dont lie to me saying u only care about playing and not winning. cuz that is obviously bs :)

hib

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2014, 03:49:05 pm »
Bad and I ping up to ~200-220 in EU. Grizz pings around 130-140. Possibly same with Lust/Doodle.
Mean for west coast -> 210x2
Mean for east coast -> 135x2

420+270= 690
690 / 4 players = 172.5 (this is avg ping not to be confused with max ping)


Rails

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2014, 03:54:55 pm »
Rails told me these rules were not made for this cup. so what to expect. well then next time we will add an russian player in our team and go russian server. which is perfectly fine and legit.

Technically, Apollyon did nothing wrong according to the rules of the cup. If they want to list Dallas as their home server, they can play Dallas. And if you wanted to add a Russian to your team and list a Russian server as your home, then by the rules, it's technically legal.
I look forward to this post being taken down so that you can continue running a corrupt system for a game that has less teams then I can count with one hand.

Anussir

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Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2014, 03:59:33 pm »
Bad and I ping up to ~200-220 in EU. Grizz pings around 130-140. Possibly same with Lust/Doodle.
Mean for west coast -> 210x2
Mean for east coast -> 135x2

420+270= 690
690 / 4 players = 172.5 (this is avg ping not to be confused with max ping)

well its easy for you to say now u and bad were gonna play the EU game. lets say grizz, doodle and lust played. that is 3 guys with yellow ping. not red. and i ping around 120 to NY so that is atleast what grizz and lust would get, dont know about doodle.

but lets lay down arms hib, not here to argue with you. it is not like we are out of the tournament. we only lost 1 game so we are still in good stand off for making it.. I just dont think that guys would had taken this with lightly if it happend to u on an EU server.
but i am trying to point out like rails just said that these rules of homeserver etc is not working. and i just think that the admins favor you in all this.

but even you have to admit that the chances of you wiping us on both tanks with 4 fast and 4 pills is highly unlikely.
 

 

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