Author Topic: Broken rules and unfair treatment.  (Read 7984 times)

Anussir

  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« on: October 20, 2014, 12:49:42 pm »
So after different opinions and different admins opinions, its gets down to that we get a deflose against apollyon after 2 server crashes on an dallas server. tbh i dont really care much about the loss itself, that is not why im writing this. my point is that how can 3 admins, have 3 different opinion on how this problem should have been solved. 1 admins says the distance points should be given for map 5. another one says that the match should be replayed or the distance should be given for map 5. and the last admins which apperantly overrule anything else that has been said and we get a deflose.

how can it be fair, that not once, but twice when we had great chances for comeback the server crashes. and we just have to pretend we get wiped, okay replay the chapter is that fair?? ofc it not when we wiped them. (okay i dont blame anyone for server crash shit happens)

yet again this rule system about choseing ur homeserver is obviosuly broken. Now i know that team apollyon dont agree on this. but you dont have to be a rocket scientist, to see that they wanted us to have a bad a ping as possible, we ping around 170 ping to dallas server. why do i know they did this intentionally? cuz the after second crash we go on chicago server. EVERY single one of team apollyon ping EVEN better to chicago server than dallas. but we ping 40-50 less to that srever than dallas. which is fair?? or?? so okay, we pretend we died on both tanks with 4 fast survivors and 4 set of pills. what are the chances that we get wiped at both tanks? a tricap would be needed for that. and how often does that land in open areas as both tanks were. so
i am 100% sure that they wanted us to ping as bad as possible. when we go to play the EU server. they are not gonna ping 170 to EU server. they ping around what would do to NY server 100-110. which makes a huge difference and favor team apollyon.
it comes down to this, for furture games FIX these flaws in home server advantages, cuz team apollyon took great advantage of that. 60 ping diff makes a huge difference. and how can we just get deflose because one admins thinks so?? I think this shows a little bit of admins favoring the american teams and lack of carrying about choseing the most fair solution.
A fair solution would had been to give us that 300-400 distance. the americans would be going to EU games with 600-700 points ahead with ping no higher than around 100. and we played with 170???? how can this be a fair treatment???

colors

  • *****
  • Posts: 502
    • View Profile
    • StickupKidz
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2014, 12:56:54 pm »
So after different opinions and different admins opinions, its gets down to that we get a deflose against apollyon after 2 server crashes on an dallas server. tbh i dont really care much about the loss itself, that is not why im writing this. my point is that how can 3 admins, have 3 different opinion on how this problem should have been solved. 1 admins says the distance points should be given for map 5. another one says that the match should be replayed or the distance should be given for map 5. and the last admins which apperantly overrule anything else that has been said and we get a deflose.

how can it be fair, that not once, but twice when we had great chances for comeback the server crashes. and we just have to pretend we get wiped, okay replay the chapter is that fair?? ofc it not when we wiped them. (okay i dont blame anyone for server crash shit happens)

yet again this rule system about choseing ur homeserver is obviosuly broken. Now i know that team apollyon dont agree on this. but you dont have to be a rocket scientist, to see that they wanted us to have a bad a ping as possible, we ping around 170 ping to dallas server. why do i know they did this intentionally? cuz the after second crash we go on chicago server. EVERY single one of team apollyon ping EVEN better to chicago server than dallas. but we ping 40-50 less to that srever than dallas. which is fair?? or?? so okay, we pretend we died on both tanks with 4 fast survivors and 4 set of pills. what are the chances that we get wiped at both tanks? a tricap would be needed for that. and how often does that land in open areas as both tanks were. so
i am 100% sure that they wanted us to ping as bad as possible. when we go to play the EU server. they are not gonna ping 170 to EU server. they ping around what would do to NY server 100-110. which makes a huge difference and favor team apollyon.
it comes down to this, for furture games FIX these flaws in home server advantages, cuz team apollyon took great advantage of that. 60 ping diff makes a huge difference. and how can we just get deflose because one admins thinks so?? I think this shows a little bit of admins favoring the american teams and lack of carrying about choseing the most fair solution.
A fair solution would had been to give us that 300-400 distance. the americans would be going to EU games with 600-700 points ahead with ping no higher than around 100. and we played with 170???? how can this be a fair treatment???

The admins set this up for international matchups to be as fair as possible. As fair as possible =/= always fair or favorable for both teams in every game. This is the inevitable downside of having an international tournament.

Also, nv won the last tourney with >170 ping.

Edit: Admins are allowed to have different opinions on how to handle a situation, but ultimately it either comes down to a consensus or a ruling from the highest authority. Having a bad experience with the admins in this situation does not merit the accusation of favoritism.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 12:58:38 pm by colors »

Sir

  • *
  • Posts: 917
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2014, 01:05:34 pm »
Quote from: Anussir
I think this shows a little bit of admins favoring the american teams and lack of carrying about choseing the most fair solution.

While I was reading through your post, I was waiting for the famous "Favoring Americans" and/or "Biased Admins" line(s) to come up, I was actually surprised to not see either in sight and was somewhat impressed.. but then you just had to say it, didn't you?

Quote from: Anussir
So after different opinions and different admins opinions, its gets down to that we get a deflose against apollyon after 2 server crashes on an dallas server. tbh i dont really care much about the loss itself, that is not why im writing this. my point is that how can 3 admins, have 3 different opinion on how this problem should have been solved. 1 admins says the distance points should be given for map 5. another one says that the match should be replayed or the distance should be given for map 5. and the last admins which apperantly overrule anything else that has been said and we get a deflose.

I'm pretty sure that eventually they all agreed on the end result, which does not mean that 1 admin overrules the others.
However, to the Admins, to avoid confusion I'd suggest that in the future it's best to get together and agree on a final decision rather than to confuse players by voicing your opinion at that time.

P.S.: Death to Dallas servers, the routing there is terrible and makes me cringe

Group Owner of :| SirPlease
Config Dev :| Zonemod 1.8

Pariah

  • ****
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2014, 01:11:38 pm »
Americans always use the server that hurts the opponents the most, I think EU teams just need to start using Moscow servers in order to balance the away games.

On topic though, it was kinda funny that the server happened to crash twice when bed time were about to more or less win the away game with 175 ms.  :D

estoopi

  • *
  • Posts: 710
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2014, 01:13:14 pm »
The feeling that all 3 admins have different "calls" on the situation is the result of badgering each admin individually until they feel obligated to just spew out there opinions while at the same time having to put disclaimers after each sentence (at least i do) that "This is not an official call. It is merely my feeling on the subject".  All admins need to talk amongst each other before a final ruling is made.

The final call, posted by Rails, was the most unbiased call there could be made.  It follows the rules of the tournament.   If there was any biased feelings hovering the situation, it was biased in team Bed Times favor as Jacob and I only wanted you to still have a match on a European server because we felt bad for your frustration.  That would indeed be "unfair" to Apollyon in this situation.

It is sad that the match on the US side had a few crashes.  It is unlucky for team Bed Time that they happened to be having a good run when both crashes happened.  Team Bed Time did not have to just "accept defeat" during the first crash and Appleonion did not have to give Bed Time any free points (which they didn't).  Most players in this community just want to win.  They don't care about their opponent's misfortunes, and they don't have to.

The ping issue is a separate issue entirely in my eyes.  Apollyon has Dallas listed as one of their home servers because they have east coast and west coast players on their team.  They may have wanted to use Dallas to screw you out of some ping, but it wasn't entirely obvious that this was the case (at least to me), and they weren't breaking any rules by using a server that they wanted as their home server from the start.

This isn't much of a point in any regard, but in CCT2 and WatchL4D Tournaments (maybe more), US teams were forced to play on NY servers (unless lots of complaints and hustling of admins happened) whenever facing EU teams.  This put west coast US players at a big disadvantage.  The system used in CCT3 is fairer.

innox

  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Dena gave me some of his KFC.
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2014, 01:27:20 pm »
Now first let me start by saying that this topic wasn't started for any form of attempt of getting the loss removed in anyway.
It is about the fact that the usage of such loopholes in the rules, server locations and whatnot needs to be looked at a more serious manner and taken care of for the sake of this tournament and if there are any that follow.
It is ridiculous and you have to be blind to not see it.

No matter how you look at it team Apollyon wanted to get an advantage over us using Dallas for their home game.
In my option and i am guessing it is popular among other people who are playing internationally home and away games have to have pings mirrored for both sides or at least have them as close as possible.

Now i want to hear the communities honest option if the situation we were in was fair towards us ? No, it was not.
To our servers in Europe team Apollyon with their East coast players ( who are a majority in their team if i am informed correctly,please do correct me if i am wrong) ping in a range of 90-130 in scoreboard,while we ping to Dallas 180 and to Chicago 130-150.
A ping mirroring situation would most likely occur if we played on a New York server where we get ping almost the same as their east coast players get to Europe.But we were told that they have people from the west coast who ping even worse than we do to New York.
We would have agreed to play on Chicago if someone from the West coast was playing, it is a matter of 10-20 ms which wouldn't be that drastic of an imbalance compared to their ping to our home server.

Regarding the server crashes we agreed to just "pretend" we died once when we realistically had a good chance to make more points on map 4 when the first crash occurred, we could have always pushed forward if we suffered severe damage from tank.Then the same thing happens on map 5 right before their 2nd tank spawned.
Now this tank was in such an area it is highly unlikely for a wipe to occur considering we were all fast + 3 or 4 sets of pills remaining.So this is why we asked to get the remaining distance from the finale added to our score leaving Apollyon with about a 500/600 point lead going into the EU game.
Most of the people agreed this was a fair trade-off.Far as i know even Doodlebugs was up for it but it was Grizz who protested against it asking us to replay our half.

Replaying it put us at an even greater disadvantage because of a few reasons.
Firstly on the finale it was obvious Apollyon had close to no idea what to do and this just shows from the fact they didn't know you have to press the radio that triggers the event twice.
Secondly they already saw us play the map once and were way more organised in their attacks and optimal route of attacking due to the fact they knew where we prefer to take the event.
Lastly at that point it was already quite late for us and we were all more or less mad at the situation which reduced our concentration while playing which means our round was fated to go worse than when we had a cool composure.

All these facts lead me to think that everything worked against us in this game.
From the loopholes in the rules to the decisions that were made all happenings were in favor of Apollyon which shows more or less some favoritism towards them to some degree but i don't want anyone to take this as an insult or accusation of anything, it is how it seems to me.

In conclusion my personal asking is that the rules get re-looked at and updated in a way to avoid such situations in the future.
I'm sure everyone wants fair games that go smoothly and with no drama what so ever than getting upset and causing a ruckus.

Sincerely, your friendly neighborhood Bulgarian, innox.

Pariah

  • ****
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2014, 01:29:53 pm »
Innox is a moron but this comment about the ping mirroring is exactly right, This is how the Home server rule should be designed, in order to mimic the opponent's pings and vice versa during the home/away games. I too wonder why americans are allowed to flagrantly fuck with the rules in order to have an advantage, Is it okay for Eu teams to suddenly switch to a moscow server and force red pings on the americans purely for shits and giggles?

Pariah

  • ****
  • Posts: 301
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2014, 01:31:32 pm »
E - Whilst Bedtime did have a tough shake with the "rules" in this match up, Dena didn't exactly help matters by attempting to drown the admins in his salty tears instead of just trying to propose a reasonable solution to the problem.

ProdigySim

  • *
  • Posts: 1233
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2014, 01:42:27 pm »
Lots of accusations about Apollyon picking servers maliciously, but that doesn't seem likely.

1. The rules state that your home server is what you use for the international matches. Apollyon's home server was listed as both Chicago and Dallas. I'm not here to defend them having 2 home servers, but it seems like it's well within reasonable for them to pick those 2.

2. Americans don't get 30ms ping to any server in the region. Nobody has any "great" server to pick, and their favorites often change based on their exact playing roster and how they feel the "reg" is on that particular day. We have enough trouble getting our servers to feel good to us, much less trying to give our opponents longarms to make their survivor worse.

3. We don't have 5+ servers per region. Chicago only has 1 or 2 servers IIRC, and it's the most popular region. If it just crashed, then going to a Dallas servers was probably the only option available.

It seems like the only thing going for that theory is that "Apollyon was losing at the time" or something. Also they're american assholes.

ProdigySim

  • *
  • Posts: 1233
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2014, 01:46:59 pm »
All these facts lead me to think that everything worked against us in this game.
From the loopholes in the rules to the decisions that were made all happenings were in favor of Apollyon which shows more or less some favoritism towards them to some degree but i don't want anyone to take this as an insult or accusation of anything, it is how it seems to me.

The fact that all these things worked out in favor of Apollyon is not favoritism when all of these things are merely coincidence.

It seems like you had an opportunity to deal with a number of admins who were interested in fixing how the crashes broke your match. They had nothing to do with how that situation started, so I don't see how you can blame any of them for not being able to change the past.

innox

  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Dena gave me some of his KFC.
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2014, 01:58:20 pm »
Like i said i am not blaming anyone for anything from the admin staff because truly they had no real measures to take against something that happened based on chance and the probability theory even.

Also Prodigy i think you misunderstood, we started off in a Dallas server and then moved to Chicago.To find out that both teams are pinging better to the later just added to the already fueled up rage inside us from the unlucky, if you wanna call it like that, turn of events.

But i am seeing this get of track from the point that there are flaws in the rules allowing such situations to a discussion about if what happened should be what happened and who is right and wrong, and it was in no way my intention.Like Anus said we do not care about this loss so much that we are ready to start an all out forum war with the other team and even the admins.


ProdigySim

  • *
  • Posts: 1233
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2014, 02:00:02 pm »
Well for what it's worth, I think most of the rest of the community would have liked to see your match and would be perfectly happy to watch you beat Apollyon. It's very disappointing that this match won't happen.

VinnioD

  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2014, 02:07:17 pm »
If the server crashed the game should be replayed. I had the same in my cup match yesterday. The server crashed, nobody could join anymore, we waited 50 minutes (while we could have taking the defwin after 5 minutes, according to the rules). After we started again on the other server, I needed to get a sub cuz not had any time anymore, and we had a major loss on the match.

Point is, I think all matches should be played till the end (on 2 games). Scores can be set, take the scores from the last map and continue.
Just my 2 penny's

purpletreefactory

  • ****
  • Posts: 458
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2014, 02:10:13 pm »
But i am seeing this get of track from the point that there are flaws in the rules allowing such situations

What rules in particular do you think are at fault?

innox

  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Dena gave me some of his KFC.
    • View Profile
Re: Broken rules and unfair treatment.
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2014, 02:20:37 pm »
In general the entire system of home/away games as it is and the fact that teams can use multiple servers as their home server.
If an extra rule is included where it states that the pings have to be  mirrored or as least be in a 10-20 ms range of difference that would make for a much more enjoyable and drama free experience for all.
That's only my opinion on the whole thing though I am sure a big part of the community would agree with this.

 

A dedicated community website to competitive L4D and L4D2, ran by the community, for the community. L4DNation supports all continents of play and focuses on bringing together the community as a whole to a central hub of information.