Author Topic: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4  (Read 15196 times)

NF

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2013, 10:26:06 am »
You know what else isn't an intended feature? Being able to shoot faster with shotgun by m1+m2ing. Just because something wasn't "intended" isn't an argument for keeping or not keeping it. Plenty of unintentional exploits have added depth to games.

Jacob

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2013, 10:26:44 am »
I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I've always seen it as a feature. Neither you nor I have any actual idea about what valve's intentions were. All we know for certain is that it has been there since launch day. Perception is everything.

It's been around since l4d1 launch, and they used to actually update the game to fix bugs. I think it is intended!

fig newtons

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2013, 12:11:20 pm »
Fun fact: rocket jumping was originally considered an "exploit" in Quake 1.

estoopi

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2013, 12:12:49 pm »
I like wallkicks.. and deadstops...  i'm scared we are dulling the game down too much removing mechanics that we've all grown up with.

I feel like i barely ever see wallkicks in 4v4s... and when they are used, it's insta-cleared.  Sure the 1v1 aspect is kinda OP towards the hunter, but in 4v4, no.

CanadaRox

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2013, 02:27:02 pm »
Here is a post I have saved that seems applicable here:

Just because something is a glitch or bug doesn't mean it is bad for the game. A few examples:

Quake has a bug that allows players to speed up indefitely by jumping (similar to bhoping but much easier to do and much you gain speed much faster).  It added a huge amount of depth to how the game was actually played which is [IMO] a huge contributor to what made the Quake series so successful.

Street Fighter II had a bug that would let players chain moves together without letting the opponent recover.  The devs knew the bug existed but they didn't think anyone would actually get good enough to actually be able to exploit the bug.  Probably no surprise to anyone here, but plenty of people were good enough.  Now the idea of a fighting game that doesn't allow chaining moves together (aka combos) is a joke to anyone that plays fighting games.

Starcraft 1 carries had a bug that allowed you to keep the interceptors out when moving the carrier, and switch targets when the carrier is outside the normal attack range.  These were a big part of what made carriers useful, and created a huge difference between different tiers of players.  SC2 doesn't have that "bug" and now carriers are pretty much a big joke (at the time the original version of this post was written, SC2 may have changed since).

Or here is a real good one.  Space invaders.  When they were making it they realized that the game was too demanding for any current hardware (those high-res graphics!).  But what they noticed was as you killed more enemies, the game would speed up because there was less stuff to draw on screen and calculate movement/collisions/etc for.  So as you killed the bad guys, the baddies would speed up.  Turned out it was super fun because the game actually got harder as you got farther into it.  If the devs had not accidentally caused this bug with their ultra-high end graphics who knows how video games would actually play today.


So just because something is a bug doesn't mean it is something that it is bad for the game, and definitely doesn't mean it needs to be fixed.  Jump rocks are something that takes some skill, if the tank screws it up it can turn out extremely bad, and it isn't something that just happens by mistake, the tank actually has to intend to do it.  It doesn't take anything away from the game and it just adds a bit more depth to tank play.
"Now I've seen people running kite scripts making perfect and I do mean geometry class perfect circles around a moving tank." - The average pub

TheWackyCheese

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2014, 06:38:29 am »
I believe silent hunter wallkicks should be removed from 4v4 configs. I feel that, now the risk of being unfairly deadstopped has been eliminated, there is really no situation where a hunter wallkick is necessary. A survivor can now only rely on their skeet instead of their m2 so hunters should only have to rely on their normal pouncing technique instead of their wallkick.  As others have stated, if m2 has been removed, wallkicking should be removed as well.

KiLLaToY

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2014, 09:08:24 am »
So what is the real problem here. The fact that the hunters are silent or that wall kicking happens too fast  and is more difficult to react too? If the hunter did make a noise, would that make it easier for a survivor to stop a wall kick? Would that split second matter? Or is being able to cap a target quickly the problem?

I didn't realize wall kicks were this big of a problem. Never was in L4D1. How often to people even wall kick anyways? I understand in a 1v1 I guess, even though 1v1's are fucking retarded, but who the hell wall kicks all the time in 4v4? Not many people even go for DP's with hunters.

Wat do guis wat do?

KiLLaToY

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2014, 09:12:20 am »
How long does it take before the entire community finally gets to a point where changes to the game/configs aren't necessary anymore? Why is it taking so long to get to a competitive standard?

Nominate me for president and I'll make the competitive standard and then we can all focus our attention on actually playing the game because everyone knows finding scrims is jokes.

epilimic

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2014, 09:42:43 am »
I believe silent hunter wallkicks should be removed from 4v4 configs. I feel that, now the risk of being unfairly deadstopped has been eliminated, there is really no situation where a hunter wallkick is necessary. A survivor can now only rely on their skeet instead of their m2 so hunters should only have to rely on their normal pouncing technique instead of their wallkick.  As others have stated, if m2 has been removed, wallkicking should be removed as well.


This sounds more like an argument for removing them from configs which block deadstops rather than all 4v4 configs. Bear in mind that only a few configs currently attempt to block deadstops and none of them are able to 100% block them.

I still see wallkicking as having a place in the game for those times where you need to get into action without waiting the 2 second crouch time. For example: the c2m3 coaster event, you can have your hunter at the top by the flagpole and instead of crouching and making it brutally obvious where you are, you can wallkick off the little thing of bricks to start your attack.

When you get to a point in the game where it comes down to every little minute detail deciding a win or a loss, what separates the boys from the men so to speak is the knowledge and ability to know when, where, and how to pull off extra techniques. To help accentuate this point let me bring up attacks like c5m1's death charges for example. Surely a charger on a rail who's feet barely touch your head should suck your body up and be carried off into the water, right? How about the one that doesn't even require a smoker where the charger actually climbs UP the banister which is taller than his waist to carry a survivor in the water. If you don't know EXACTLY where to line that charge up at, you will not land it. These advanced moves and techniques I feel definitely have a place in the game when you're at the point that everybody knows all the standard attacks and all the norms. You have to deviate a bit, you have to mix it up, and there are times where being able to simply wallkick to initiate your attack is something that can make the difference between landing a 3-cap and having everything get cleared instantly.

I really want to reiterate that wallkicking in 1v1's, as in the quick kicks as a survivor is coming around a corner is cheap as hell and has absolutely no place. In 4v4's they absolutely serve a purpose and have a meaningful function. Maintain stealth for as long as possible. It's also incredibly useful to be able to recover quickly and escape up the side of a wall by kicking right away instead of standing there crouching for 2 seconds.


edit: also I nominate KiLLaToY for topgunfogl president 2014
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 09:46:19 am by epilimic »
what what, in the mutt

crebz

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2014, 10:01:36 am »
...

The default crouch time is 1 second, not 2 seconds, fuck. The cvar is z_pounce_crouch_delay if you want to check. Also your argument is pretty flawed, you are basically saying that to be a good player you need to wallkick in certain situations which is 100% false. You should try not wallkicking for a while, and instead focus on pouncing in less predictable ways, you will realise how unnecessary wallkicking really is.

epilimic

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2014, 10:41:20 am »
The default crouch time is 1 second, not 2 seconds, fuck. The cvar is z_pounce_crouch_delay if you want to check. Also your argument is pretty flawed, you are basically saying that to be a good player you need to wallkick in certain situations which is 100% false. You should try not wallkicking for a while, and instead focus on pouncing in less predictable ways, you will realise how unnecessary wallkicking really is.

Whatever the time is, 1s, 2s, big deal. My point is the same either way. I'm also not saying that you need to wallkick to be a good player, I'm saying that this is an extra technique that you don't see utilized by new players and that it has a place in the game. I play enough 4v4 hunters to know when to crouch and when not to.. lol. Lastly I never said it was necessary! This is an extra ability that I'm saying people should learn how to utilize in ways that aren't quick kicks against people coming around a corner.
what what, in the mutt

fig newtons

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2014, 12:36:20 pm »
The default crouch time is 1 second, not 2 seconds, fuck. The cvar is z_pounce_crouch_delay if you want to check. Also your argument is pretty flawed, you are basically saying that to be a good player you need to wallkick in certain situations which is 100% false. You should try not wallkicking for a while, and instead focus on pouncing in less predictable ways, you will realise how unnecessary wallkicking really is.

Sweet, if wallkicking is unnecessary, then it doesn't have to be blocked either. /thread?

NF

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2014, 02:01:03 pm »
you will realise how unnecessary wallkicking really is.

So what's the problem?

The Guy

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2014, 06:42:50 pm »
So what's the problem?

the problem is that its broken lmfao. might i just remind you guys that ive pretty much explained how its broken and none of you idiots have come up with a single solid point against it, or any point besides "pls me need wallkick because cant wait 1 second + i can be super ninja lel xD"
seriously though, i wouldnt have a problem with keeping wallkicking if you could actually prove it isnt broken or overpowered
just one of those guys

NF

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2014, 06:54:37 pm »
the problem is that its broken lmfao. might i just remind you guys that ive pretty much explained how its broken and none of you idiots have come up with a single solid point against it, or any point besides "pls me need wallkick because cant wait 1 second + i can be super ninja lel xD"
seriously though, i wouldnt have a problem with keeping wallkicking if you could actually prove it isnt broken or overpowered

It was proven on the first page. You need to learn to time SI spawns so you know when spawns are up, so you can predict if there might be a Hunter around the next corner ready to wallpounce you. You can then bait the pounce.

 

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