L4DNation

Competitive => Confogl & Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Visor on December 29, 2013, 04:36:02 pm

Title: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Visor on December 29, 2013, 04:36:02 pm
Keep/remove silent hunter wallkicks in 4v4? Your opinions please.

My own opinion is, intentional feature or not, this makes the hunter OP and should be removed. It's already blocked in most 1v1s so why not go further and do the same with other modes. Sure it's a good built-in antirush solution but ping/lerp is way too decisive in this scenario. Unless both are low, the survivor, most likely, won't be able to self-clear(unless lucky). I think hunter wallkicks are almost like the taser gun(Zeus x27) from CS:GO. Nice thing for fun, but OP for competitive modes(and thus removed from them).

To clarify: I'm not talking about killing the hunter attempting a wallkick. This is a horrid solution, implemented in a popular L4D1 plugin by someone who had no idea that it can actually be blocked. I've made a plugin for it a long time ago and it works fine. The only downside to it is the client prediction: hunter attempting a wallkick will have his view twitch for a moment. The higher the ping, the longer the client will have to "wait" for confirmation(or rather infirmation) from the server that his last attempted pounce is not "legit" and thus not allowed.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: crebz on December 29, 2013, 04:41:17 pm
Yes please, there really is no excuse for wallkicking now that deadstop is disabled. And with the amount players complain about 'silent' jockeys I really don't see why silent hunters should be allowed.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Visor on December 29, 2013, 04:42:51 pm
Yeah I think this will make its way into EQ2.1, but the topic covers PM as well. And thanks for your input!
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Bravo on December 29, 2013, 05:35:19 pm
only scenario I could think of where it could be op is when one survivor remains running for points and gets wallkicked.  Even at that point experienced players are always aware of spawn timers and the chance there could be a hunter around the corner which calls for a run at the corner and take two steps back in order to try to bait the spawn out.  I dont think its op.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: NF on December 29, 2013, 06:40:38 pm
I think it's pretty much an exploit/oversight by valve, but I don't think it's OP. In most situations, you should know when spawns are up, and you can bait a hunter wallkick if you think he's around a corner.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Sam on December 30, 2013, 12:23:37 am
keep it. Its no more op than a smoker in an open field.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: The Guy on December 30, 2013, 01:32:24 am
The way I see it, wallkicking should be removed from 4v4.

It's an unintended and unnecessary mechanic that allows for an instant and nearly unavoidable cap that can only really be denied by dumb luck or horrid infected play. A single wallkick can allow for so much undeserved damage when relied on for SI attacks. For example, if a spitter were to pre-spit as the hunter wallkicks a survivor, there is nothing you can do to avoid absorbing a huge amount of damage. What exactly is this punishing? It essentially rewards SI with massive damage for silent pouncing from anywhere and 'meticulously calculating' where to aim your spit. Even in a game with a nerfed spitter, it is still very high damage for something that can only be evaded with pure luck.

Even in the absence of a spitter, wallkicking can be a map winner if a team were desperate enough. If a hunter wallkicked and won a double or triple stumble as the rest of his team arrives, you might as well be forcing the survivors to pull their pants down and accept the red rod of punishment. How can it be justified to allow for survivors to be stumbled as a result of a certain 'hooded shark' materialising on top of someone with no warning? This unfairly and significantly increases the chance of the rest of the SI team landing. Wallkicking has no place in competitive configs.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: nikeon on December 30, 2013, 02:15:34 am
While Im seeing where Visor is coming from ,i also dont think WK is OP.

Yes its silent,sort of, but as mentioned before a player should always be aware that spawns are up and stuff can happen.

In an 1v1 (rest of team dead) Situation ofc the hunter has a some advantage with the possibility of a WK but come on whats with the last man standing smoker?Same shit.

Sure one can say you can cut the tongue and kill it but one can also say you can skeet the WK(shotgun/melee, in promod you can even m2 it) or simply bait it.Idk why the intention is always to kick stuff out that is a bit difficult to do.

The Removal of m2(at least in eq) was the first good thing that happened since a longer time,why take now something away again from Infected/Hunters that is only a real advantage in a situation where other teammates are dead or at least really far splitted(if thats the case its also not OP thats a mayor mistake in your gameplay).

The situations described by The Guy are also not really a reason.If you rush blindly around a corner with 4 guys lined up for a perfect stumble its the hunter WK to blame you get stumbled/spitted/damaged?I would think of playing more carefully instead of blaming an "OP" feature but thats just me.   
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: The Guy on December 30, 2013, 02:51:10 am
The situations described by The Guy are also not really a reason.If you rush blindly around a corner with 4 guys lined up for a perfect stumble its the hunter WK to blame you get stumbled/spitted/damaged?I would think of playing more carefully instead of blaming an "OP" feature but thats just me.   


How can you say they aren't a reason if they are perfectly valid? You haven't really explained why its not a reason aside from giving an empty argument that doesn't really make much sense. While it would be rare to get a triple stumble off a wallkick, it is still possible and is a valid point of discussion. Regardless of that particular situation, a wallkick that doesn't stumble can still be effective due to the shock it creates for the survivor team, who instinctively focus on their capped team mate and once again unfairly raises the chances of the rest of the SI attack to land, while unfairly inflicting damage on the pounced survivor who had no chance to react to the hunter. This is the only reason you have given in saying my examples aren't a reason for removing wallkicks. Don't create a bias by saying my points aren't valid without thinking about it first.

Is wallkicking, which is essentially allowing for a free cap with little effort and almost no chance to miss, the hallmark of a competitive game? We might as well get rid of the plugin that fixes silent jockeys if we want to phase out skillful gameplay.

(http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/sp/thumb/1348/08/1348088483001s.jpg)
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: nikeon on December 30, 2013, 03:18:46 am
You were describing a situation where infected would get a lot of damage out of a tripple or quad stumble out of a WK which is not rare its close to impossible.If that happens its 100% the fault of the Survivor Play and not the Hunter been able to WK.You could have also eaten a quad charge (rocket spawn,bhop) or gotten this damage by the same hunter if he would make a sound.

Wk creates a shock?I dunno you can always count spawns and everyone knows around 99% of all possible scenarios at any point so i dont see there is anything suprising anymore.Only question to ask when spawns are up,where is what exactly coming from.
If you eat a WK around some corner, which is the only suprising situation a WK can be "shocking" if you want so,you played just careless.You know WK`s can happen ,especially around corners so why just run into it without baiting it or getting a well-placed cover by your teammate.

If something is to be expected and/or can be predicted its more "skill" ( lets call it game experience no?) then just remove something because you dont wanna think about tactical possibilities?Calling something OP means to me its close to an instant kill or at least a horrible amount of damage without efford and without the chance of doing something against it as a team.(L4D is still no SoloShooter,its a teamgame.)
You are with 4 guys and the sense behind this is too cover each other and play with your brain on or you really wanna call it skill to m2 a hunter or blackpoint skeet some hunter coming straight at you?

Also you are comparing a silent jock with a hunter.A silent jockey cant be predicted or foreseen when its dropping from a roof.Sure you can say you can cover the roofs but you wanna compare that with the known-fact that a hunter could be prespawned for a WK around a corner?Dont think so.

Also a WK is not a free cap especially not in promod.In pm just send your team intern m2 god in front -> problem solved.Doubt that?watch some streams from cct2 and later on tournaments and you will see that like a lot.
Also you can always skeet/melee skeet/bait/dodge the WK and even if that doesnt work out a well-placed teammate clears you within seconds and the hunter deals what ,5 damage?

Anyway:If a 100% predictable situation is that much of a problem why dont just give the hunter  a sound similar to the anti-silent jockey plug?That way even players with no experience know when a hunter is going to WK around the corner :]
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Bravo on December 30, 2013, 03:36:32 am
No need for all these SPECIFIC arguments.

Bottom line is no skilled survivor can be EASILY pounce spit on with this mechanic, every skillfull game ive watched or participated in has never been affected by this.  I challenge you to find a quarter-finals / semi-finals or good luck with this but a finals match in a tournament where a wallkick successfully landed and moderate to huge damage was the outcome.  I guarantee you will find none. 

Leave shit like this alone, we should be focusing on things like removing shit props and going back to the basics.  This game only needs a stable 4-6 pill count + witch/tank + tier 1 + pause/ready-up.  stop over complicating things.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: nikeon on December 30, 2013, 03:45:20 am
No need for all these SPECIFIC arguments.

Bottom line is no skilled survivor can be EASILY pounce spit on with this mechanic, every skillfull game ive watched or participated in has never been affected by this.  I challenge you to find a quarter-finals / semi-finals or good luck with this but a finals match in a tournament where a wallkick successfully landed and moderate to huge damage was the outcome.  I guarantee you will find none. 

Leave shit like this alone, we should be focusing on things like removing shit props and going back to the basics.  This game only needs a stable 4-6 pill count + witch/tank + tier 1 + pause/ready-up.  stop over complicating things.

I´d love to see a config with only 4 total pills,1 witch,1 tank,  max pauses and a autoforced ready up(autoforcestart ready up after 2 or max 3 mins) , no-m2 against hunters and a score system that makes sense.

Fully supporting this.

Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: epilimic on December 30, 2013, 06:35:31 am
Nope, I think they should stay in 4v4. Wallkicks are useful in a number of situations where you don't want to crouch first to pounce, and I'm not talking about little quick kicks when someone steps around the corner. Most of the time I start off my pounces with wallkicks instead of crouches because simply you can get going faster and get to where you need to be without the survivors hearing the pre-pounce growl. It's an efficient way of starting your attack and while it has no place in 1v1's because of the quick kicks, it definitely should stay in 4v4.

If you really think this is a big deal then you should block the ability to land a pounce if a wallkick starts the pounce and a successful pounce lands within 1 second or something. Don't block the functionality from those of use who utilize it in a legitimately efficient manner for all the other attacks.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Artifacial on December 30, 2013, 07:10:26 am
Or just permit m2s to register on wallkicked hunters.

Other than what epi said, the only times I see wallkicked hunters lead to large amounts of damage are when survivors burst in to a small room with spawns up (wallkick first person in, charge others rushing in to try and clear, spit, gg). Even without hunters, blindly running in to small rooms like that is a pretty stupid thing to do, and I'm guessing most people would at least quickly bait/check if SI are in the room or spawn up before actually entering it (i.e. a room that comes to mind is DK2, if you rush hard after the first attack and manage to get inside, more often than not the next attack will be in that small room at the end, and you'd expect a hunter to be in there and wallkick). Feigning going in to that room and quickly backing out is a pretty effective way to negate those sort of attacks, and I'd wager most people do that?

I think hunters in general have become a bit of a nuisance in EQ. I'm definitely not a fan of the level of m2'ing in PM (it seems survivors can just spam m2 and half of the time it registers on a hunter), but I'm also not a fan of it completely being removed. When you're boomed with an uzi it's more or less a free hunt, and it doesn't take a particularly skillful hunter to land on you (and despite what some people say, when you're being bumped by common, you can't necessarily aim at a hunter pouncing low at you from a small distance away with uzi). You couple that with spit, and you can take a bit of damage. I know there's an argument of it placing more emphasis on clears, but its still in many cases a free cap. I think middle ground should be met - increase the m2 delay to a point where a survivor has perhaps one chance to get an m2 off. At the very least, it gives the survivor a chance not to be cheaply capped, and yet allows the hunter to bait the m2 before pouncing, and not worry about being m2d simply by spam. Added to that frustration is the fact that m2s occasionally actually register when they're not supposed to. I'd at least rather consistent over random gameplay (unless this has been fixed in a recent left4downtown update?).
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: crebz on December 30, 2013, 01:54:19 pm
Nope, I think they should stay in 4v4. Wallkicks are useful in a number of situations where you don't want to crouch first to pounce, and I'm not talking about little quick kicks when someone steps around the corner. Most of the time I start off my pounces with wallkicks instead of crouches because simply you can get going faster and get to where you need to be without the survivors hearing the pre-pounce growl. It's an efficient way of starting your attack and while it has no place in 1v1's because of the quick kicks, it definitely should stay in 4v4.

If you really think this is a big deal then you should block the ability to land a pounce if a wallkick starts the pounce and a successful pounce lands within 1 second or something. Don't block the functionality from those of use who utilize it in a legitimately efficient manner for all the other attacks.
How hard is it crouch for one second? Not to mention that the hunter is the fastest SI. There is no need to ever wallkick if you are a good hunter, stop relying on broken mechanics.

Or just permit m2s to register on wallkicked hunters.
No, this is worse than the other idea of making wallkicks unable to land. Why try to fix an unnecessary mechanic when it can just be removed.

I think hunters in general have become a bit of a nuisance in EQ. I'm definitely not a fan of the level of m2'ing in PM (it seems survivors can just spam m2 and half of the time it registers on a hunter), but I'm also not a fan of it completely being removed. When you're boomed with an uzi it's more or less a free hunt, and it doesn't take a particularly skillful hunter to land on you (and despite what some people say, when you're being bumped by common, you can't necessarily aim at a hunter pouncing low at you from a small distance away with uzi). You couple that with spit, and you can take a bit of damage. I know there's an argument of it placing more emphasis on clears, but its still in many cases a free cap. I think middle ground should be met - increase the m2 delay to a point where a survivor has perhaps one chance to get an m2 off. At the very least, it gives the survivor a chance not to be cheaply capped, and yet allows the hunter to bait the m2 before pouncing, and not worry about being m2d simply by spam. Added to that frustration is the fact that m2s occasionally actually register when they're not supposed to. I'd at least rather consistent over random gameplay (unless this has been fixed in a recent left4downtown update?).
Even with the max m2 penalty (which definitely should be added to the 4v4 configs) its still ridiculously easy to deadstop a hunter. Removing deadstops was one of the best things to happen to this game as of late, why should it be added back in just because you choose to take a gun that is less effective against hunters and fail to pop the boomer? And the only time I see 'deadstops' register when they shouldn't is when the hunter lands on the survivors head, but the hunter can easily avoid this happening (until it hopefully gets fixed).
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: fig newtons on December 30, 2013, 02:00:52 pm
Leave it in.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: The Guy on December 30, 2013, 11:30:31 pm
I'm not one to punch a baby but once again your argument is so stupid that I have to come in again so that people don't bias the discussion with their unwavering devotion to reliance on broken game mechanics like wallkicking.

You were describing a situation where infected would get a lot of damage out of a tripple or quad stumble out of a WK which is not rare its close to impossible.If that happens its 100% the fault of the Survivor Play and not the Hunter been able to WK.You could have also eaten a quad charge (rocket spawn,bhop) or gotten this damage by the same hunter if he would make a sound.


So once again you argue that the situation I used as an example, which is still completely valid and possible, is impossible? Why dispute that a situation doesn't exist when it does? The idea of using a scenario as evidence is to illustrate the possible outcomes that may result from a wallkick. One would think this would be very useful in a discussion thread and I can't fathom how you can dispute that as worthless by saying it doesn't happen. Stop arguing like a 5 year old.

Wk creates a shock?I dunno you can always count spawns and everyone knows around 99% of all possible scenarios at any point so i dont see there is anything suprising anymore.Only question to ask when spawns are up,where is what exactly coming from.
If you eat a WK around some corner, which is the only suprising situation a WK can be "shocking" if you want so,you played just careless.You know WK`s can happen ,especially around corners so why just run into it without baiting it or getting a well-placed cover by your teammate.


What relevance does counting spawns have against wallkicking? You haven't explained anything in regards to that so why bother saying it? Counting spawns won't tell you if a hunter is wallkicking or not. Wallkicking can't be predicted and can definitely come as a shock to a survivor team because it can't be forseen and is almost guaranteed to land. I don't understand why you tried to outline what is and isn't a surprising situation. Even in that 'situation' you described, how can you bait a wallkicking hunter if it makes no sound? You might as well be hiding from a ghost. That particular situation is fundamentally absurd. If by chance the hunter does start making noise for whatever reason, it is 100% his fault because he wouldn't be getting baited before making a sound unless the survivors are doing a choke point, or the survivor team is moving at snail pace due to the fear of being wallkicked around every corner. If a team were daft enough to be doing this, it would be easy for the infected team to capitalise on it.

If something is to be expected and/or can be predicted its more "skill" ( lets call it game experience no?) then just remove something because you dont wanna think about tactical possibilities?Calling something OP means to me its close to an instant kill or at least a horrible amount of damage without efford and without the chance of doing something against it as a team.(L4D is still no SoloShooter,its a teamgame.)
You are with 4 guys and the sense behind this is too cover each other and play with your brain on or you really wanna call it skill to m2 a hunter or blackpoint skeet some hunter coming straight at you?


What's tactical about wallkicking? It's a cheap alternative to actually learning to use a hunter. There is absolutely no need to wallkick if you are a good hunter. Is it tactical to abuse a mechanic that makes your spawn not only instant but silent as well? Due to the situations I described earlier and the fact that wallkicking can result in 'a horrible amount of damage without effort and without the chance of doing something against it as a team' I would say it is OP. This is how you define OP and wallkicking fits the bill. I don't think you know how to construct an argument if your posts are so empty and unstructured that it is nearly incoherent and supports the argument that you are opposing. One would think that the words of someone who writes so poorly should be worthless. You argue that survivors should be covering eachother and playing smart. That's fine, but you link it to m2ing hunters and ezskeets being unskillful. It's so poorly written that I don't see the link here, if it even exists.

Also you are comparing a silent jock with a hunter.A silent jockey cant be predicted or foreseen when its dropping from a roof.Sure you can say you can cover the roofs but you wanna compare that with the known-fact that a hunter could be prespawned for a WK around a corner?Dont think so.


This is probably the silliest 'argument' you have made so far. I'll make this easy for you to understand how. 'A silent jockey can't be predicted or foreseen'. A wallkicking hunter can't be predicted or foreseen. I don't see the difference here. 'Sure you can say you can cover the roofs...' Even if you did, you can't consistently clear jockeys dropping from the roof silently on your own. With one person covering the roof for silent jockeys, something I would consider ghost hunting, it would take at least 2 shots with a shotgun to clear it on your own. This is generally enough time to land on somebody with only one person covering it. Uzi is also unreliable due to the spread making it impossible to consistently hit, as well as the fact that no one can track perfectly. The point is that you can't perfectly cover the roof on your own, or any spawn point really. So with that cleared up, you compare it to once again predicting that hunters are going to wallkick. Let me make this clear. You simply can't accurately predict whether a hunter is going to be wallkicking or not. Even in the VERY VERY rare scenario where a survivor gets lucky and predicts a wallkick, it is still far easier to land the wallkick than it would be to pounce normally.

Also a WK is not a free cap especially not in promod.In pm just send your team intern m2 god in front -> problem solved.Doubt that?watch some streams from cct2 and later on tournaments and you will see that like a lot.
Also you can always skeet/melee skeet/bait/dodge the WK and even if that doesnt work out a well-placed teammate clears you within seconds and the hunter deals what ,5 damage?


You say wallkicks aren't a free cap, which is true. It is more like an extremely high chance to land because the hunter may screw up his spawn by making a noise, be spotted for whatever reason or get skeeted around the corner by someone shooting a common. The fact that you seem to ignore is that wallkicks can't be accurately predicted and survivors stand very little chance to prevent it from landing. Don't start a config debate either, there will surely be a preference bias if we started bringing config features into it. Your suggested solution to wallkicking is relying on the survivors ability to foresee a hunter prespawned around the corner, not making a sound, waiting to instantly cap the first survivor that comes through. You can't predict wallkicking hunters. Stop disputing that. You also claim that there is plenty of evidence of players using psychic ability to shut down wallkicks. Where are they? Mentioning them isn't enough to make it a solid point for your argument, which again leads me to seriously doubt your knowledge of the game. 'Also you can always skeet/melee skeet/bait/dodge the WK'. No, you can't. You simply can not 'always' skeet/melee skeet/bait/dodge something that is impossible to accurately predict. Nobody can predict every wallkick which is what makes it a broken inconsistent mechanic. Even if you clear the wallkick fast, what if you get spat on? What if another SI is there to attack the wallkick victim? You can inflict heavy and unavoidable damage onto that survivor who had very little chance of avoiding the wallkick in the first place. This is not a balanced mechanic.

Anyway:If a 100% predictable situation is that much of a problem why dont just give the hunter  a sound similar to the anti-silent jockey plug?That way even players with no experience know when a hunter is going to WK around the corner :]


Anyway: Wallkicks aren't 100% predictable which is why its a broken mechanic. Giving the hunter a sound similar to the anti-silent jockey plugin is a terrible idea, on the same level of introducing double-jumping to the game. I actually don't think its even worth explaining how stupid that solution is. Why don't we just make all of the SI silent until they m1? This is pretty much what you guys are arguing for.

(http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/sp/thumb/1348/08/1348088483001s.jpg) (http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/sp/thumb/1348/08/1348088483001s.jpg)
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Sam on December 31, 2013, 12:54:59 am
no1 in favor of removing wallkicks has any ground to stand on until they can find some substantial evidence that demonstrates its op-ness like a finals match or of the sort... as bravo suggested.


ps. too much text for me
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: The Guy on December 31, 2013, 01:12:25 am
Sam, only teams of quality make it to finals matches. Wallkicking is frowned upon in most communities just like needlessly rushing tanks. Why should we need to use finals teams as a measure of whether or not wallkicks are OP if good teams don't wallkick? Don't post useless comments.

ps. read the thread lol
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: epilimic on December 31, 2013, 01:55:59 am
How hard is it crouch for one second? Not to mention that the hunter is the fastest SI. There is no need to ever wallkick if you are a good hunter, stop relying on broken mechanics.

Who's to say it's a broken mechanic? It's been a thing since launch day, could just as well be intentional. Also nobody said a thing about it being "hard" to crouch first, I'm merely taking advantage of an ability that gets me into play faster and can potentially make the difference between a wipe or not. There's a time to crouch first and a time to wallkick first and I think a good hunter knows the difference between the two.

I don't want to be sitting in a tree holding crouch being noisy waiting to pounce, I want to be able to stand there silently and kick off the branch next to me to land a DP. I see this as an ability that compliments a SI that is supposed to be quiet and sneaky. It's also much faster to kai jump up a wall starting from a wallkick than it is to wait the two seconds crouching. I wanna get my ass up that wall and fast!
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Sam on December 31, 2013, 02:04:53 am
Sam, only teams of quality make it to finals matches. Wallkicking is frowned upon in most communities just like needlessly rushing tanks. Why should we need to use finals teams as a measure of whether or not wallkicks are OP if good teams don't wallkick? Don't post useless comments.

ps. read the thread lol
Needlessly rushing tanks? lol? is that a thing? you can rush tanks as much as you want... dont be silly. and no1 in the us scene frowns upon wallkicking... is that a thing in the euro scene? and "teams of quality" use wallkicks all the time... all the time! again dont be silly.

p.s. you talk to much about wallkicks... serisouly that was a fucking thesis.
p.s.s dont be silly.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: crebz on December 31, 2013, 02:34:57 am
Who's to say it's a broken mechanic? It's been a thing since launch day, could just as well be intentional. Also nobody said a thing about it being "hard" to crouch first, I'm merely taking advantage of an ability that gets me into play faster and can potentially make the difference between a wipe or not. There's a time to crouch first and a time to wallkick first and I think a good hunter knows the difference between the two.

I don't want to be sitting in a tree holding crouch being noisy waiting to pounce, I want to be able to stand there silently and kick off the branch next to me to land a DP. I see this as an ability that compliments a SI that is supposed to be quiet and sneaky. It's also much faster to kai jump up a wall starting from a wallkick than it is to wait the two seconds crouching. I wanna get my ass up that wall and fast!
It obviously wasn't an intended feature, why do you think they made it so you have to crouch for one second (not two) before pouncing? If they wanted to hunter to be able to pounce instantly and silently (which they obviously didn't) then they may as well have just let the hunter pounce by pressing mouse1, without crouching or using a wall.

If wallkicking was never a thing, and somebody now suggested adding it to the game, they would get torn to pieces for their idiotic suggestion. You guys really need to stop clinging onto broken mechanics, it not only benefits everyone but also the game itself.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Bravo on December 31, 2013, 03:36:23 am
Sam, only teams of quality make it to finals matches. Wallkicking is frowned upon in most communities just like needlessly rushing tanks. Why should we need to use finals teams as a measure of whether or not wallkicks are OP if good teams don't wallkick? Don't post useless comments.

ps. read the thread lol

I wish I was the type to record my gameplay but i'll have to say that skeeting wallkicked hunters are fairly easy and not impossible, and as far as good teams wallkicking, they do.  I know I do, but it is not OP therefore nobody ever is like oh shit did you see that wallkick? it nearly wiped that team.

and I think we are losing grip of what op means, haymakers were OVER POWERED, 15 ammo hunting rifles with precise accuracy were OVERPOWERED.  Quick hunters arent op, theyre annoying to players who arent experienced/skilled.

And holy shit dude dont type up a dam 2 page essay I bet nobody read your response (no offense).
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Bravo on December 31, 2013, 03:44:04 am
It obviously wasn't an intended feature, why do you think they made it so you have to crouch for one second (not two) before pouncing? If they wanted to hunter to be able to pounce instantly and silently (which they obviously didn't) then they may as well have just let the hunter pounce by pressing mouse1, without crouching or using a wall.

If wallkicking was never a thing, and somebody now suggested adding it to the game, they would get torn to pieces for their idiotic suggestion. You guys really need to stop clinging onto broken mechanics, it not only benefits everyone but also the game itself.

If the game started out with no witches and someone came and was like "hey lets add a old lady that incaps you in one strike if you miss her!" everyone would think theyre retarded too.

What you guys are suggesting is not on the right path to making the game more balanced, we make the game competitive by adding things like limits on guns, pause/ready up, pill count, not changing the game factors in their entirety.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Luckylock on December 31, 2013, 04:16:27 am
There was this one situation where I was the last one standing and somewhat far from my teamates (inside a building) because I had to run away from a tank and finally killed it. When I ran towards my teamate with intention of picking them up, I had to run through a corridor, and I got wallkicked in the face with an impossibly low reaction window. I couldn't have done anything about it because by the time the hunter was appearing on my screen, it had already pounced me because of the latency.

I'd be okay with removing wallkicks... but let's analyse first;

Although it's been part of the game since the start, and, just like fast-climbing, it's a sometimes better alternative. It gives the hunter an extra option of attacking, which I find is legitimate.

Basically, I'm saying that situations where wallkick has caused a team wipe happens rarely, but do.

Now you have the benefits of wallkicking vs "unfair" pounce land...

The survivor's m2 is pretty darn powerful, and if a hunter's wallkick can prevent it from getting m2'd so easily, then I'm okay with that as well.

If m2's were to be removed in a config, I believe wallkicks must be removed as well.

Both sides have very valid points, I'm not sure what would be best though. I think the hunter might need that little suprise attack, even if it makes it near-impossible for survivors to deny the pounce landing. Also, I'm sure nobody likes it when they get wallkicked in the face, because yes it is cheap.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Bravo on December 31, 2013, 04:20:25 am
There was this one situation where I was the last one standing and somewhat far from my teamates (inside a building) because I had to run away from a tank and finally killed it. When I ran towards my teamate with intention of picking them up, I had to run through a corridor, and I got wallkicked in the face with an impossibly low reaction window. I couldn't have done anything about it because by the time the hunter was appearing on my screen, it had already pounced me because of the latency.

I'd be okay with removing wallkicks... but let's analyse first;

Although it's been part of the game since the start, and, just like fast-climbing, it's a sometimes better alternative. It gives the hunter an extra option of attacking, which I find is legitimate.

Basically, I'm saying that situations where wallkick has caused a team wipe happens rarely, but do.

Now you have the benefits of wallkicking vs "unfair" pounce land...

The survivor's m2 is pretty darn powerful, and if a hunter's wallkick can prevent it from getting m2'd so easily, then I'm okay with that as well. If m2's were to be removed in a config, I believe wallkicks must be removed as well.

Both sides have very valid points, I'm not sure what would be best though. I think the hunter might need that little suprise attack, even if it makes it near-impossible for survivors to deny the pounce landing.

im assuming you only had one teammate left on the ground which means that one hunter didnt really wipe you and even if all 3 were down, STILL that one hunter didnt wipe you it was alot of other things as well but  that just finished you off.  I cant really ever see where this has been an issue, in 2v2s and 1v1s sure, but its never overstayed its welcome in 4v4s =)
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Luckylock on December 31, 2013, 04:33:01 am
im assuming you only had one teammate left on the ground which means that one hunter didnt really wipe you and even if all 3 were down, STILL that one hunter didnt wipe you it was alot of other things as well but  that just finished you off.  I cant really ever see where this has been an issue, in 2v2s and 1v1s sure, but its never overstayed its welcome in 4v4s =)

No my whole team was on the ground and living, still had pills left to make it pretty far after the pickups. Regardless, my story was just to show that it happens. But yes, rarely, a wallkick will be the direct cause of a wipe. We have to ask ourselves if those wipes are legitimate, or the result of a cheap tactic?

I personally think it's a cheap tactic, but overall the game's more enjoyable as SI with wallkicks allowed. It's a nice solution to prevent getting m2'd and land your pounce with a suprise attack.

Wallkicks are very nice to have for hunters, as previously stated (get up walls faster, etc...)

So like, I'd allow wallkicking if m2's are allowed.
And remove wallkicking if m2's are removed.

As for the 1v1, 2v2 and etc hunter configs, I think it's personal preference, and you should have the option to either disable or enable it. (I think it's only disabled in some servers, and only in 1v1 configs. I have yet to see it disabled for 2v2s, 3v3s or 4v4s).

For hunter configs, remember the vote we used to do at some point to either disable or enable addons? I'm thinking maybe a similar vote to either disable or enable wallkicks when you start up a hunters only config, as it plays a pretty big part.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Visor on December 31, 2013, 05:17:37 am
... remember the vote we used to do at some point to either disable or enable addons?

It has disappeared due to Valve's own method superceeding my implementation. But with Left4Downtown v0.5.7 you can bring that vote back... If you want.

As for this thread, I think I've seen pretty much enough. As usual, people can only really judge by their own experience. Bravo, for instance, thinks wallkicks should stay because international top tier teams from (semi)finals don't have any problems with them. What can I say, I'm grateful for any feedback, but feedback is feedback and not a fact. There are tens of other teams who don't have to learn to adapt to unpredictable / artificially complicated mechanics. Keeping wallkicks in configs with no M2 was only justified when the only way of preventing them was by killing the hunter, which is a no-go for >1v1 modes. Now since they've been rendered blockable, I really don't see anything bad in removing them along with deadstops. However if the latter stay, probably keeping wallkicks is worth it, to prevent overly self-confident rushers from looking too optimistic in the future. But that's a matter of preference, and, of course, the config.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: nikeon on December 31, 2013, 05:33:12 am
Sam, only teams of quality make it to finals matches. Wallkicking is frowned upon in most communities just like needlessly rushing tanks. Why should we need to use finals teams as a measure of whether or not wallkicks are OP if good teams don't wallkick? Don't post useless comments.

ps. read the thread lol

I will use this quote as response to your big text thingie since the rest is just too long.

Your saying Im argueing like a 5 y old?Better look in the mirror.Good teams dont wallkick?
Everyone does it,even good teams.
Your saying a situation caused by bad survivor play is the result of an "OP" feature?Thats also just stupid.
Idk how much experience (Tournaments/Scrims) you actually have but here were at least 3 other  experienced Players who stated that Wking is predictable and something to be expected and i think that pretty much takes away all points of your argumentation.

Ofc you cant say a Wallkick is going to happen or not after the next corner since you -normally- cant look through walls- BUT you can expect if they have a hunter a Wk might be something after that corner,so you play more carefull and try to bait it or whatever.

And just because im too lazy to get rid of your other "arguments" im repeating it one more time : Find One Tournament game(dont even care if group phase or finals) where a wallkick decided a game or was the cause of an immense amount of damage for no reason.

If you cant provide this ,its pretty obv that Wking is nothing OP and just a matter of your own survivor play how you deal with it.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: epilimic on December 31, 2013, 09:47:27 am
It obviously wasn't an intended feature, why do you think they made it so you have to crouch for one second (not two) before pouncing? If they wanted to hunter to be able to pounce instantly and silently (which they obviously didn't) then they may as well have just let the hunter pounce by pressing mouse1, without crouching or using a wall.

If wallkicking was never a thing, and somebody now suggested adding it to the game, they would get torn to pieces for their idiotic suggestion. You guys really need to stop clinging onto broken mechanics, it not only benefits everyone but also the game itself.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I've always seen it as a feature. Neither you nor I have any actual idea about what valve's intentions were. All we know for certain is that it has been there since launch day. Perception is everything.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: NF on December 31, 2013, 10:26:06 am
You know what else isn't an intended feature? Being able to shoot faster with shotgun by m1+m2ing. Just because something wasn't "intended" isn't an argument for keeping or not keeping it. Plenty of unintentional exploits have added depth to games.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Jacob on December 31, 2013, 10:26:44 am
I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I've always seen it as a feature. Neither you nor I have any actual idea about what valve's intentions were. All we know for certain is that it has been there since launch day. Perception is everything.

It's been around since l4d1 launch, and they used to actually update the game to fix bugs. I think it is intended!
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: fig newtons on December 31, 2013, 12:11:20 pm
Fun fact: rocket jumping was originally considered an "exploit" in Quake 1.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: estoopi on December 31, 2013, 12:12:49 pm
I like wallkicks.. and deadstops...  i'm scared we are dulling the game down too much removing mechanics that we've all grown up with.

I feel like i barely ever see wallkicks in 4v4s... and when they are used, it's insta-cleared.  Sure the 1v1 aspect is kinda OP towards the hunter, but in 4v4, no.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: CanadaRox on December 31, 2013, 02:27:02 pm
Here is a post I have saved that seems applicable here:

Just because something is a glitch or bug doesn't mean it is bad for the game. A few examples:

Quake has a bug that allows players to speed up indefitely by jumping (similar to bhoping but much easier to do and much you gain speed much faster).  It added a huge amount of depth to how the game was actually played which is [IMO] a huge contributor to what made the Quake series so successful.

Street Fighter II had a bug that would let players chain moves together without letting the opponent recover.  The devs knew the bug existed but they didn't think anyone would actually get good enough to actually be able to exploit the bug.  Probably no surprise to anyone here, but plenty of people were good enough.  Now the idea of a fighting game that doesn't allow chaining moves together (aka combos) is a joke to anyone that plays fighting games.

Starcraft 1 carries had a bug that allowed you to keep the interceptors out when moving the carrier, and switch targets when the carrier is outside the normal attack range.  These were a big part of what made carriers useful, and created a huge difference between different tiers of players.  SC2 doesn't have that "bug" and now carriers are pretty much a big joke (at the time the original version of this post was written, SC2 may have changed since).

Or here is a real good one.  Space invaders.  When they were making it they realized that the game was too demanding for any current hardware (those high-res graphics!).  But what they noticed was as you killed more enemies, the game would speed up because there was less stuff to draw on screen and calculate movement/collisions/etc for.  So as you killed the bad guys, the baddies would speed up.  Turned out it was super fun because the game actually got harder as you got farther into it.  If the devs had not accidentally caused this bug with their ultra-high end graphics who knows how video games would actually play today.


So just because something is a bug doesn't mean it is something that it is bad for the game, and definitely doesn't mean it needs to be fixed.  Jump rocks are something that takes some skill, if the tank screws it up it can turn out extremely bad, and it isn't something that just happens by mistake, the tank actually has to intend to do it.  It doesn't take anything away from the game and it just adds a bit more depth to tank play.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: TheWackyCheese on January 08, 2014, 06:38:29 am
I believe silent hunter wallkicks should be removed from 4v4 configs. I feel that, now the risk of being unfairly deadstopped has been eliminated, there is really no situation where a hunter wallkick is necessary. A survivor can now only rely on their skeet instead of their m2 so hunters should only have to rely on their normal pouncing technique instead of their wallkick.  As others have stated, if m2 has been removed, wallkicking should be removed as well.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: KiLLaToY on January 08, 2014, 09:08:24 am
So what is the real problem here. The fact that the hunters are silent or that wall kicking happens too fast  and is more difficult to react too? If the hunter did make a noise, would that make it easier for a survivor to stop a wall kick? Would that split second matter? Or is being able to cap a target quickly the problem?

I didn't realize wall kicks were this big of a problem. Never was in L4D1. How often to people even wall kick anyways? I understand in a 1v1 I guess, even though 1v1's are fucking retarded, but who the hell wall kicks all the time in 4v4? Not many people even go for DP's with hunters.

Wat do guis wat do?
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: KiLLaToY on January 08, 2014, 09:12:20 am
How long does it take before the entire community finally gets to a point where changes to the game/configs aren't necessary anymore? Why is it taking so long to get to a competitive standard?

Nominate me for president and I'll make the competitive standard and then we can all focus our attention on actually playing the game because everyone knows finding scrims is jokes.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: epilimic on January 08, 2014, 09:42:43 am
I believe silent hunter wallkicks should be removed from 4v4 configs. I feel that, now the risk of being unfairly deadstopped has been eliminated, there is really no situation where a hunter wallkick is necessary. A survivor can now only rely on their skeet instead of their m2 so hunters should only have to rely on their normal pouncing technique instead of their wallkick.  As others have stated, if m2 has been removed, wallkicking should be removed as well.


This sounds more like an argument for removing them from configs which block deadstops rather than all 4v4 configs. Bear in mind that only a few configs currently attempt to block deadstops and none of them are able to 100% block them.

I still see wallkicking as having a place in the game for those times where you need to get into action without waiting the 2 second crouch time. For example: the c2m3 coaster event, you can have your hunter at the top by the flagpole and instead of crouching and making it brutally obvious where you are, you can wallkick off the little thing of bricks to start your attack.

When you get to a point in the game where it comes down to every little minute detail deciding a win or a loss, what separates the boys from the men so to speak is the knowledge and ability to know when, where, and how to pull off extra techniques. To help accentuate this point let me bring up attacks like c5m1's death charges for example. Surely a charger on a rail who's feet barely touch your head should suck your body up and be carried off into the water, right? How about the one that doesn't even require a smoker where the charger actually climbs UP the banister which is taller than his waist to carry a survivor in the water. If you don't know EXACTLY where to line that charge up at, you will not land it. These advanced moves and techniques I feel definitely have a place in the game when you're at the point that everybody knows all the standard attacks and all the norms. You have to deviate a bit, you have to mix it up, and there are times where being able to simply wallkick to initiate your attack is something that can make the difference between landing a 3-cap and having everything get cleared instantly.

I really want to reiterate that wallkicking in 1v1's, as in the quick kicks as a survivor is coming around a corner is cheap as hell and has absolutely no place. In 4v4's they absolutely serve a purpose and have a meaningful function. Maintain stealth for as long as possible. It's also incredibly useful to be able to recover quickly and escape up the side of a wall by kicking right away instead of standing there crouching for 2 seconds.


edit: also I nominate KiLLaToY for topgunfogl president 2014
(http://i.imgur.com/go9gTs3.jpg)
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: crebz on January 08, 2014, 10:01:36 am
...

The default crouch time is 1 second, not 2 seconds, fuck. The cvar is z_pounce_crouch_delay if you want to check. Also your argument is pretty flawed, you are basically saying that to be a good player you need to wallkick in certain situations which is 100% false. You should try not wallkicking for a while, and instead focus on pouncing in less predictable ways, you will realise how unnecessary wallkicking really is.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: epilimic on January 08, 2014, 10:41:20 am
The default crouch time is 1 second, not 2 seconds, fuck. The cvar is z_pounce_crouch_delay if you want to check. Also your argument is pretty flawed, you are basically saying that to be a good player you need to wallkick in certain situations which is 100% false. You should try not wallkicking for a while, and instead focus on pouncing in less predictable ways, you will realise how unnecessary wallkicking really is.

Whatever the time is, 1s, 2s, big deal. My point is the same either way. I'm also not saying that you need to wallkick to be a good player, I'm saying that this is an extra technique that you don't see utilized by new players and that it has a place in the game. I play enough 4v4 hunters to know when to crouch and when not to.. lol. Lastly I never said it was necessary! This is an extra ability that I'm saying people should learn how to utilize in ways that aren't quick kicks against people coming around a corner.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: fig newtons on January 08, 2014, 12:36:20 pm
The default crouch time is 1 second, not 2 seconds, fuck. The cvar is z_pounce_crouch_delay if you want to check. Also your argument is pretty flawed, you are basically saying that to be a good player you need to wallkick in certain situations which is 100% false. You should try not wallkicking for a while, and instead focus on pouncing in less predictable ways, you will realise how unnecessary wallkicking really is.

Sweet, if wallkicking is unnecessary, then it doesn't have to be blocked either. /thread?
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: NF on January 08, 2014, 02:01:03 pm
you will realise how unnecessary wallkicking really is.

So what's the problem?
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: The Guy on January 08, 2014, 06:42:50 pm
So what's the problem?

the problem is that its broken lmfao. might i just remind you guys that ive pretty much explained how its broken and none of you idiots have come up with a single solid point against it, or any point besides "pls me need wallkick because cant wait 1 second + i can be super ninja lel xD"
seriously though, i wouldnt have a problem with keeping wallkicking if you could actually prove it isnt broken or overpowered
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: NF on January 08, 2014, 06:54:37 pm
the problem is that its broken lmfao. might i just remind you guys that ive pretty much explained how its broken and none of you idiots have come up with a single solid point against it, or any point besides "pls me need wallkick because cant wait 1 second + i can be super ninja lel xD"
seriously though, i wouldnt have a problem with keeping wallkicking if you could actually prove it isnt broken or overpowered

It was proven on the first page. You need to learn to time SI spawns so you know when spawns are up, so you can predict if there might be a Hunter around the next corner ready to wallpounce you. You can then bait the pounce.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: The Guy on January 08, 2014, 07:07:04 pm
It was proven on the first page. You need to learn to time SI spawns so you know when spawns are up, so you can predict if there might be a Hunter around the next corner ready to wallpounce you. You can then bait the pounce.

No, it was proven that you can't predict wallkicks. Read the thread again.

Next?
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: NF on January 08, 2014, 07:11:51 pm
No, it was proven that you can't predict wallkicks. Read the thread again.

Next?

gr8 b8 m8. I'll respond anyway. Your "proof" was simply repeating that "IT CANT BE PREDICTED OR BAITED TRUST ME GUYS"

It takes SI 16-18 seconds to respawn depending on config. (let's say 17 seconds)

After that, it probably takes around 1 second to get into position.

Thus you can reasonably predict a wallkick could occur anytime after the first SI died 18 seconds ago.

So unpredictable!
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: TheWackyCheese on January 08, 2014, 07:23:11 pm
It was proven on the first page. You need to learn to time SI spawns so you know when spawns are up, so you can predict if there might be a Hunter around the next corner ready to wallpounce you. You can then bait the pounce.

No it was proven that, any player can count and predict when spawns are up but you can't predict whether or not a hunter is going to wallkick. As far as I see it, the only situations described where a hunter wallkicks is when:

1. A survivor is coming around a corner.
2. To start off a pounce.

In regards to situation 1, it has been stated that it is silent, unpredictable, unavoidable and practically impossible to clear without luck. It is therefore unfair on the survivors and should not exist as an alternative to normal pouncing.
In regards to situation 2, surely you can wait 1 second to actually start off a pounce normally? You shouldn't have to rely on a wallkick to start your pounce if you are a good hunter.

I'm open to other suggestions or situations where a wallkick is valid and I will openly change my standing on the issue, but until those situations are explained and reasons are given for their use, I don't believe wallkicks should be allowed. This thread is just going around in circles and situations are being repeated with their flaws pointed out very easily. As far as I see it, wallkicking has not been rightly justified so until it is, my opinion on the issue stands.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: TheWackyCheese on January 08, 2014, 07:25:46 pm
It takes SI 16-18 seconds to respawn depending on config. (let's say 17 seconds)

After that, it probably takes around 1 second to get into position.

Thus you can reasonably predict a wallkick could occur anytime after the first SI died 18 seconds ago.

So unpredictable!

Once again, you're explaining spawn times rather than what the hunter will do in those spawn times. Spawn times are predictable, wallkicks aren't. I seriously hope you're trolling because your posts are absolutely moronic.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: NF on January 08, 2014, 07:40:52 pm
In regards to situation 1, it has been stated that it is silent, unpredictable, unavoidable and practically impossible to clear without luck. It is therefore unfair on the survivors and should not exist as an alternative to normal pouncing.


Since people seem to be unable to comprehend how it's possible to bait something, I made a quick drawing in MS paint to explain.

http://i.imgur.com/J3ZYV21.png (http://i.imgur.com/J3ZYV21.png)

As you can see, a survivor is walking forward toward a corner (pretend it's the one way drop room on Dark Carnival 3 or something). Green is survivor, red is Hunter.

Now this is where strategy comes in. The survivor, if reasonably intelligent, knows spawns are up because he timed it in his head. He knows there could possibly be a Hunter around the corner. The Team as a whole knows this as well, so they send their shotgun player to go first since shotgun is better at doing damage close range over Uzi.

So what he (should) do next is to slowly peek around the corner holding shift so the Hunter doesn't see his glow coming. By "peek" I mean the smallest distance you could go around a corner to see around it. EDIT: Actually, you wouldn't even need to go that far! You just need to get an angle far enough where you could see one of the Hunter's arms so you know he's there.

As soon as he sees the Hunter, the following things could happen:

1. The Survivor shoots the Hunter before he can wallkick and kills him.
2. If the Survivor has really good reaction times, you can press M2 at the same time he wallkicks to deadstop him. Or if you're super pro you can skeet him with a melee weapon.
3. The Survivor shoots the Hunter before/as he is wallkicking, but doesn't do enough damage to kill him. What he should do next is immediately back up around the corner he came and walk backwards asap. The Hunter has to follow him around the corner, meaning he could get skeeted or deadstopped.
4. The Hunter wallkicks the Survivor because the Survivor has low reaction time and didn't back away or shoot in time. The Survivor then enjoys his session getting anally raped in spitter goo.

The Survivor is actually in the advantage here because his lack of glows from shift-walking actually gives him the advantage, because he can choose where and when he goes around the corner, whereas the Hunter just has to simply wait and react.

Which is precisely the weakness that can be exploited to beat it.

The entire scenario depends on the Survivor's reaction time. If you aren't quick enough, you will get pounced. If you're smart, you can beat it.

If you blindly hold W walking around a corner leading with an Uzi, don't be surprised when you get fucked. It's not the game's fault, it's yours. This is far from being "unpredictable" and "unavoidable". git gud.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: fig newtons on January 08, 2014, 07:56:36 pm
So. Does anybody who is good at comp l4d think it's a problem?
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: TheWackyCheese on January 08, 2014, 08:08:43 pm
But there's no deadstopping anymore? That's the only reason they weren't insanely overpowered. Because you could deadstop and it would register on the hunter practically all the time. The length of that corridor is so small that the survivor wouldn't even have time to skeet and the hunter, if reasonably intelligent, would know the survivors are ghosting and silent pounce in an extremely short space leading to a practically guaranteed cap once again.

Furthermore, that's a lot of effort to go to to try and clear something that is silent, undetectable and easy to remove. You can't bait what you don't know is there. I'll be damned if I have to do what you just described every 18 seconds.

Lets assume the hunter is as skilled as the survivors. So he doesn't get spotted when the survivors peek (thats fair because equal skill remember?). Hunter isn't spotted, survivors waste time potentially bleeding out while their idiot teammate searches for a wallkicking hunter. You might as search for bigfoot too while you're at it if you want to dedicate time to hunting for things you can't see or hear. But anyway, assuming equal skill because of the stupidity of this scenario, the hunter won't get spotted and a teammate in ghostmode is watching the corner. At one point the survivor has to over commit to his peak to the point where he cant escape back the way he just came from, and still can't see the hunter. (Once again we are assuming the survivor team are 10x better than any american team has ever been).
You just can't be stupid enough to think a team would actually waste all of that time waiting for a wallkick that probably won't even be there. This argument is so stupid, it's just like saying "but in theory you can headshot every single SI before it gets close to you so you shouldn't take any damage at all". Theorycrafting stupid scenarios to prove a point thats already been disproven is just so stupid.
So anyway the hunter doesn't get baited because he isnt a dumb fuck, survivor keeps baiting because apparently you can see through walls and spot hunters waiting to wallkick,  but since the hunter is as skilled as the survivor, which isnt a problem at all, he can avoid getting spotted until the survivor gets close enough so that he can't avoid it and can't react to it and if he doesn't, the survivors don't progress at all because they are fucking idiots.

/thread
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: fig newtons on January 08, 2014, 08:10:41 pm
But there's no deadstopping anymore?
Bear in mind that only a few configs currently attempt to block deadstops and none of them are able to 100% block them.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: TheWackyCheese on January 08, 2014, 08:15:52 pm
As. I've already said, my stance on the issue refers to configs that block deadstops as I believe if a config blocks deadstops, it should block wallkicking as well.  If a config blocks deadstops, it can be fairly assumed that it does so more often than not and in my recent confogl playing, I have never encountered a deadstop occurring when it has been blocked. Can we really please stop reiterating stuff that has already been clearly stated.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: fig newtons on January 08, 2014, 08:37:42 pm
Keep/remove silent hunter wallkicks in 4v4? Your opinions please.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: crebz on January 08, 2014, 10:15:22 pm
Since people seem to be unable to comprehend how it's possible to bait something, I made a quick drawing in MS paint to explain.

[url]http://i.imgur.com/J3ZYV21.png[/url] ([url]http://i.imgur.com/J3ZYV21.png[/url])

As you can see, a survivor is walking forward toward a corner (pretend it's the one way drop room on Dark Carnival 3 or something). Green is survivor, red is Hunter.

Now this is where strategy comes in. The survivor, if reasonably intelligent, knows spawns are up because he timed it in his head. He knows there could possibly be a Hunter around the corner. The Team as a whole knows this as well, so they send their shotgun player to go first since shotgun is better at doing damage close range over Uzi.

So what he (should) do next is to slowly peek around the corner holding shift so the Hunter doesn't see his glow coming. By "peek" I mean the smallest distance you could go around a corner to see around it. EDIT: Actually, you wouldn't even need to go that far! You just need to get an angle far enough where you could see one of the Hunter's arms so you know he's there.

As soon as he sees the Hunter, the following things could happen:

1. The Survivor shoots the Hunter before he can wallkick and kills him.
2. If the Survivor has really good reaction times, you can press M2 at the same time he wallkicks to deadstop him. Or if you're super pro you can skeet him with a melee weapon.
3. The Survivor shoots the Hunter before/as he is wallkicking, but doesn't do enough damage to kill him. What he should do next is immediately back up around the corner he came and walk backwards asap. The Hunter has to follow him around the corner, meaning he could get skeeted or deadstopped.
4. The Hunter wallkicks the Survivor because the Survivor has low reaction time and didn't back away or shoot in time. The Survivor then enjoys his session getting anally raped in spitter goo.

The Survivor is actually in the advantage here because his lack of glows from shift-walking actually gives him the advantage, because he can choose where and when he goes around the corner, whereas the Hunter just has to simply wait and react.

Which is precisely the weakness that can be exploited to beat it.

The entire scenario depends on the Survivor's reaction time. If you aren't quick enough, you will get pounced. If you're smart, you can beat it.

If you blindly hold W walking around a corner leading with an Uzi, don't be surprised when you get fucked. It's not the game's fault, it's yours. This is far from being "unpredictable" and "unavoidable". git gud.

It isn't remotely hard to time spawns or predict hunters around corners, that isn't even the problem... The thing is the hunter can pounce from anywhere without giving any sound queue, only a bad hunter would predictably pre-spawn around a corner so I'm not sure why that is even being considered, let alone the only thing referenced in your 'argument'. Say you are about to clear a teammate but then get pounced out of nowhere because silent hunter, that is where it can be a problem. Say you are shooting tank, you know spawns are up but you can't just not shoot the tank, normally you would hear the SI spawn and can then react to them but there isn't much you can do with a silent hunter that can come from almost anywhere and land on you pretty much instantly.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: fig newtons on January 08, 2014, 11:00:46 pm
Hunter is the easiest to clear. Seriously in promod I feel like the hunter is the worst SI sometimes. If you can't deal with a wallkicking hunter then be easier to clear and don't stumble into intercepts.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Bravo on January 08, 2014, 11:10:17 pm
Its funny how if we come to a conclusion to remove it ill bet both my nuts you idiots will just run around corners thinking "thank god, no more wallkicks" and get analed by a spit charge or something.  Probably the same reason as to why I dont know who the fuck any of you are, probably retarded players that have pretty much the awareness of gabe newell downing 3 big macs, zero.

ps: my ass hole is ready for the flames, lets go.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: crebz on January 08, 2014, 11:13:55 pm
Hunter is the easiest to clear. Seriously in promod I feel like the hunter is the worst SI sometimes. If you can't deal with a wallkicking hunter then be easier to clear and don't stumble into intercepts.

That isn't the point, I didn't say anything about being difficult to clear, the point is that a survivor should not be punished with being pounced when they didn't necessarily do anything wrong. And what the fuck is 'If you can't deal with a wallkicking hunter' supposed to mean? It's like you guys are completely missing the point, it's still easy to skeet a hunter that wallkicks at you if you know where it is, the reason wallkicks are overpowered is that a hunter can spawn out of your fov and land on you before you can possibly react to the sound of it pouncing it off a wall, and don't try to tell me that it's possible to predict every wallkick or check every potential wallkick spot constantly, because it isn't.

The way I see it:
Bad survivors rely on deadstopping to shut down hunters
Bad hunters rely on wallkicking to pounce survivors
Removing both = Higher skill ceiling game
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: crebz on January 08, 2014, 11:20:08 pm
Its funny how if we come to a conclusion to remove it ill bet both my nuts you idiots will just run around corners thinking "thank god, no more wallkicks" and get analed by a spit charge or something.  Probably the same reason as to why I dont know who the fuck any of you are, probably retarded players that have pretty much the awareness of gabe newell downing 3 big macs, zero.

ps: my ass hole is ready for the flames, lets go.

See my earlier post, I don't think anybody complained about getting wallkicked by running around corners when spawns are up. And the reason you don't know who I am is because I live in another region, no need to ignorantly denounce me as a bad player because I disagree with your stance on broken mechanics kek.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: Bravo on January 08, 2014, 11:22:32 pm
That isn't the point, I didn't say anything about being difficult to clear, the point is that a survivor should not be punished with being pounced when they didn't necessarily do anything wrong. And what the fuck is 'If you can't deal with a wallkicking hunter' supposed to mean? It's like you guys are completely missing the point, it's still easy to skeet a hunter that wallkicks at you if you know where it is, the reason wallkicks are overpowered is that a hunter can spawn out of your fov and land on you before you can possibly react to the sound of it pouncing it off a wall, and don't try to tell me that it's possible to predict every wallkick or check every potential wallkick spot constantly, because it isn't.

The way I see it:
Bad survivors rely on deadstopping to shut down hunters
Bad hunters rely on wallkicking to pounce survivors
Removing both = Higher skill ceiling game

Bad survivor doesn't necessarily mean they deadstop, I wouldn't say im the best by any means but I definitely skeet more then I deadstop but as im baiting these corners with these RIDICULOUSLY IMPOSSIBLE hunters, I sometimes do deadstop them.  And it doesnt mean you're hunters are bad thus you wallkick, its all about getting from point A to point B quicker, in dark carnival 2 when you get up the ladder choke and cross the stairs to get to the slide (sometimes i wallkick from the bottom of the alley to the top to initiate a hit).  This isnt l4d1 where if it was removed you can freely run around corners without getting raped by a charge spit.  Seriously, if you want it removed because idiots run around corners and get wallkicked you have no valid point, im sorry.
Title: Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
Post by: fig newtons on January 08, 2014, 11:29:20 pm
It's getting hot in here
so take off all Bravo's clothes