Author Topic: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4  (Read 15197 times)

The Guy

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2014, 07:07:04 pm »
It was proven on the first page. You need to learn to time SI spawns so you know when spawns are up, so you can predict if there might be a Hunter around the next corner ready to wallpounce you. You can then bait the pounce.

No, it was proven that you can't predict wallkicks. Read the thread again.

Next?
just one of those guys

NF

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2014, 07:11:51 pm »
No, it was proven that you can't predict wallkicks. Read the thread again.

Next?

gr8 b8 m8. I'll respond anyway. Your "proof" was simply repeating that "IT CANT BE PREDICTED OR BAITED TRUST ME GUYS"

It takes SI 16-18 seconds to respawn depending on config. (let's say 17 seconds)

After that, it probably takes around 1 second to get into position.

Thus you can reasonably predict a wallkick could occur anytime after the first SI died 18 seconds ago.

So unpredictable!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 07:14:04 pm by NF »

TheWackyCheese

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2014, 07:23:11 pm »
It was proven on the first page. You need to learn to time SI spawns so you know when spawns are up, so you can predict if there might be a Hunter around the next corner ready to wallpounce you. You can then bait the pounce.

No it was proven that, any player can count and predict when spawns are up but you can't predict whether or not a hunter is going to wallkick. As far as I see it, the only situations described where a hunter wallkicks is when:

1. A survivor is coming around a corner.
2. To start off a pounce.

In regards to situation 1, it has been stated that it is silent, unpredictable, unavoidable and practically impossible to clear without luck. It is therefore unfair on the survivors and should not exist as an alternative to normal pouncing.
In regards to situation 2, surely you can wait 1 second to actually start off a pounce normally? You shouldn't have to rely on a wallkick to start your pounce if you are a good hunter.

I'm open to other suggestions or situations where a wallkick is valid and I will openly change my standing on the issue, but until those situations are explained and reasons are given for their use, I don't believe wallkicks should be allowed. This thread is just going around in circles and situations are being repeated with their flaws pointed out very easily. As far as I see it, wallkicking has not been rightly justified so until it is, my opinion on the issue stands.

TheWackyCheese

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2014, 07:25:46 pm »
It takes SI 16-18 seconds to respawn depending on config. (let's say 17 seconds)

After that, it probably takes around 1 second to get into position.

Thus you can reasonably predict a wallkick could occur anytime after the first SI died 18 seconds ago.

So unpredictable!

Once again, you're explaining spawn times rather than what the hunter will do in those spawn times. Spawn times are predictable, wallkicks aren't. I seriously hope you're trolling because your posts are absolutely moronic.

NF

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2014, 07:40:52 pm »
In regards to situation 1, it has been stated that it is silent, unpredictable, unavoidable and practically impossible to clear without luck. It is therefore unfair on the survivors and should not exist as an alternative to normal pouncing.


Since people seem to be unable to comprehend how it's possible to bait something, I made a quick drawing in MS paint to explain.

http://i.imgur.com/J3ZYV21.png

As you can see, a survivor is walking forward toward a corner (pretend it's the one way drop room on Dark Carnival 3 or something). Green is survivor, red is Hunter.

Now this is where strategy comes in. The survivor, if reasonably intelligent, knows spawns are up because he timed it in his head. He knows there could possibly be a Hunter around the corner. The Team as a whole knows this as well, so they send their shotgun player to go first since shotgun is better at doing damage close range over Uzi.

So what he (should) do next is to slowly peek around the corner holding shift so the Hunter doesn't see his glow coming. By "peek" I mean the smallest distance you could go around a corner to see around it. EDIT: Actually, you wouldn't even need to go that far! You just need to get an angle far enough where you could see one of the Hunter's arms so you know he's there.

As soon as he sees the Hunter, the following things could happen:

1. The Survivor shoots the Hunter before he can wallkick and kills him.
2. If the Survivor has really good reaction times, you can press M2 at the same time he wallkicks to deadstop him. Or if you're super pro you can skeet him with a melee weapon.
3. The Survivor shoots the Hunter before/as he is wallkicking, but doesn't do enough damage to kill him. What he should do next is immediately back up around the corner he came and walk backwards asap. The Hunter has to follow him around the corner, meaning he could get skeeted or deadstopped.
4. The Hunter wallkicks the Survivor because the Survivor has low reaction time and didn't back away or shoot in time. The Survivor then enjoys his session getting anally raped in spitter goo.

The Survivor is actually in the advantage here because his lack of glows from shift-walking actually gives him the advantage, because he can choose where and when he goes around the corner, whereas the Hunter just has to simply wait and react.

Which is precisely the weakness that can be exploited to beat it.

The entire scenario depends on the Survivor's reaction time. If you aren't quick enough, you will get pounced. If you're smart, you can beat it.

If you blindly hold W walking around a corner leading with an Uzi, don't be surprised when you get fucked. It's not the game's fault, it's yours. This is far from being "unpredictable" and "unavoidable". git gud.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 08:07:27 pm by NF »

fig newtons

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2014, 07:56:36 pm »
So. Does anybody who is good at comp l4d think it's a problem?

TheWackyCheese

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2014, 08:08:43 pm »
But there's no deadstopping anymore? That's the only reason they weren't insanely overpowered. Because you could deadstop and it would register on the hunter practically all the time. The length of that corridor is so small that the survivor wouldn't even have time to skeet and the hunter, if reasonably intelligent, would know the survivors are ghosting and silent pounce in an extremely short space leading to a practically guaranteed cap once again.

Furthermore, that's a lot of effort to go to to try and clear something that is silent, undetectable and easy to remove. You can't bait what you don't know is there. I'll be damned if I have to do what you just described every 18 seconds.

Lets assume the hunter is as skilled as the survivors. So he doesn't get spotted when the survivors peek (thats fair because equal skill remember?). Hunter isn't spotted, survivors waste time potentially bleeding out while their idiot teammate searches for a wallkicking hunter. You might as search for bigfoot too while you're at it if you want to dedicate time to hunting for things you can't see or hear. But anyway, assuming equal skill because of the stupidity of this scenario, the hunter won't get spotted and a teammate in ghostmode is watching the corner. At one point the survivor has to over commit to his peak to the point where he cant escape back the way he just came from, and still can't see the hunter. (Once again we are assuming the survivor team are 10x better than any american team has ever been).
You just can't be stupid enough to think a team would actually waste all of that time waiting for a wallkick that probably won't even be there. This argument is so stupid, it's just like saying "but in theory you can headshot every single SI before it gets close to you so you shouldn't take any damage at all". Theorycrafting stupid scenarios to prove a point thats already been disproven is just so stupid.
So anyway the hunter doesn't get baited because he isnt a dumb fuck, survivor keeps baiting because apparently you can see through walls and spot hunters waiting to wallkick,  but since the hunter is as skilled as the survivor, which isnt a problem at all, he can avoid getting spotted until the survivor gets close enough so that he can't avoid it and can't react to it and if he doesn't, the survivors don't progress at all because they are fucking idiots.

/thread

fig newtons

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2014, 08:10:41 pm »
But there's no deadstopping anymore?
Bear in mind that only a few configs currently attempt to block deadstops and none of them are able to 100% block them.

TheWackyCheese

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2014, 08:15:52 pm »
As. I've already said, my stance on the issue refers to configs that block deadstops as I believe if a config blocks deadstops, it should block wallkicking as well.  If a config blocks deadstops, it can be fairly assumed that it does so more often than not and in my recent confogl playing, I have never encountered a deadstop occurring when it has been blocked. Can we really please stop reiterating stuff that has already been clearly stated.

fig newtons

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2014, 08:37:42 pm »
Keep/remove silent hunter wallkicks in 4v4? Your opinions please.

crebz

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2014, 10:15:22 pm »
Since people seem to be unable to comprehend how it's possible to bait something, I made a quick drawing in MS paint to explain.

http://i.imgur.com/J3ZYV21.png

As you can see, a survivor is walking forward toward a corner (pretend it's the one way drop room on Dark Carnival 3 or something). Green is survivor, red is Hunter.

Now this is where strategy comes in. The survivor, if reasonably intelligent, knows spawns are up because he timed it in his head. He knows there could possibly be a Hunter around the corner. The Team as a whole knows this as well, so they send their shotgun player to go first since shotgun is better at doing damage close range over Uzi.

So what he (should) do next is to slowly peek around the corner holding shift so the Hunter doesn't see his glow coming. By "peek" I mean the smallest distance you could go around a corner to see around it. EDIT: Actually, you wouldn't even need to go that far! You just need to get an angle far enough where you could see one of the Hunter's arms so you know he's there.

As soon as he sees the Hunter, the following things could happen:

1. The Survivor shoots the Hunter before he can wallkick and kills him.
2. If the Survivor has really good reaction times, you can press M2 at the same time he wallkicks to deadstop him. Or if you're super pro you can skeet him with a melee weapon.
3. The Survivor shoots the Hunter before/as he is wallkicking, but doesn't do enough damage to kill him. What he should do next is immediately back up around the corner he came and walk backwards asap. The Hunter has to follow him around the corner, meaning he could get skeeted or deadstopped.
4. The Hunter wallkicks the Survivor because the Survivor has low reaction time and didn't back away or shoot in time. The Survivor then enjoys his session getting anally raped in spitter goo.

The Survivor is actually in the advantage here because his lack of glows from shift-walking actually gives him the advantage, because he can choose where and when he goes around the corner, whereas the Hunter just has to simply wait and react.

Which is precisely the weakness that can be exploited to beat it.

The entire scenario depends on the Survivor's reaction time. If you aren't quick enough, you will get pounced. If you're smart, you can beat it.

If you blindly hold W walking around a corner leading with an Uzi, don't be surprised when you get fucked. It's not the game's fault, it's yours. This is far from being "unpredictable" and "unavoidable". git gud.

It isn't remotely hard to time spawns or predict hunters around corners, that isn't even the problem... The thing is the hunter can pounce from anywhere without giving any sound queue, only a bad hunter would predictably pre-spawn around a corner so I'm not sure why that is even being considered, let alone the only thing referenced in your 'argument'. Say you are about to clear a teammate but then get pounced out of nowhere because silent hunter, that is where it can be a problem. Say you are shooting tank, you know spawns are up but you can't just not shoot the tank, normally you would hear the SI spawn and can then react to them but there isn't much you can do with a silent hunter that can come from almost anywhere and land on you pretty much instantly.

fig newtons

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2014, 11:00:46 pm »
Hunter is the easiest to clear. Seriously in promod I feel like the hunter is the worst SI sometimes. If you can't deal with a wallkicking hunter then be easier to clear and don't stumble into intercepts.

Bravo

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2014, 11:10:17 pm »
Its funny how if we come to a conclusion to remove it ill bet both my nuts you idiots will just run around corners thinking "thank god, no more wallkicks" and get analed by a spit charge or something.  Probably the same reason as to why I dont know who the fuck any of you are, probably retarded players that have pretty much the awareness of gabe newell downing 3 big macs, zero.

ps: my ass hole is ready for the flames, lets go.

crebz

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2014, 11:13:55 pm »
Hunter is the easiest to clear. Seriously in promod I feel like the hunter is the worst SI sometimes. If you can't deal with a wallkicking hunter then be easier to clear and don't stumble into intercepts.

That isn't the point, I didn't say anything about being difficult to clear, the point is that a survivor should not be punished with being pounced when they didn't necessarily do anything wrong. And what the fuck is 'If you can't deal with a wallkicking hunter' supposed to mean? It's like you guys are completely missing the point, it's still easy to skeet a hunter that wallkicks at you if you know where it is, the reason wallkicks are overpowered is that a hunter can spawn out of your fov and land on you before you can possibly react to the sound of it pouncing it off a wall, and don't try to tell me that it's possible to predict every wallkick or check every potential wallkick spot constantly, because it isn't.

The way I see it:
Bad survivors rely on deadstopping to shut down hunters
Bad hunters rely on wallkicking to pounce survivors
Removing both = Higher skill ceiling game

crebz

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2014, 11:20:08 pm »
Its funny how if we come to a conclusion to remove it ill bet both my nuts you idiots will just run around corners thinking "thank god, no more wallkicks" and get analed by a spit charge or something.  Probably the same reason as to why I dont know who the fuck any of you are, probably retarded players that have pretty much the awareness of gabe newell downing 3 big macs, zero.

ps: my ass hole is ready for the flames, lets go.

See my earlier post, I don't think anybody complained about getting wallkicked by running around corners when spawns are up. And the reason you don't know who I am is because I live in another region, no need to ignorantly denounce me as a bad player because I disagree with your stance on broken mechanics kek.

 

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