Author Topic: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4  (Read 15184 times)

fig newtons

  • *
  • Posts: 1882
    • View Profile
    • configs
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2013, 02:00:52 pm »
Leave it in.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 02:47:23 pm by fig newtons »

The Guy

  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2013, 11:30:31 pm »
I'm not one to punch a baby but once again your argument is so stupid that I have to come in again so that people don't bias the discussion with their unwavering devotion to reliance on broken game mechanics like wallkicking.

You were describing a situation where infected would get a lot of damage out of a tripple or quad stumble out of a WK which is not rare its close to impossible.If that happens its 100% the fault of the Survivor Play and not the Hunter been able to WK.You could have also eaten a quad charge (rocket spawn,bhop) or gotten this damage by the same hunter if he would make a sound.


So once again you argue that the situation I used as an example, which is still completely valid and possible, is impossible? Why dispute that a situation doesn't exist when it does? The idea of using a scenario as evidence is to illustrate the possible outcomes that may result from a wallkick. One would think this would be very useful in a discussion thread and I can't fathom how you can dispute that as worthless by saying it doesn't happen. Stop arguing like a 5 year old.

Wk creates a shock?I dunno you can always count spawns and everyone knows around 99% of all possible scenarios at any point so i dont see there is anything suprising anymore.Only question to ask when spawns are up,where is what exactly coming from.
If you eat a WK around some corner, which is the only suprising situation a WK can be "shocking" if you want so,you played just careless.You know WK`s can happen ,especially around corners so why just run into it without baiting it or getting a well-placed cover by your teammate.


What relevance does counting spawns have against wallkicking? You haven't explained anything in regards to that so why bother saying it? Counting spawns won't tell you if a hunter is wallkicking or not. Wallkicking can't be predicted and can definitely come as a shock to a survivor team because it can't be forseen and is almost guaranteed to land. I don't understand why you tried to outline what is and isn't a surprising situation. Even in that 'situation' you described, how can you bait a wallkicking hunter if it makes no sound? You might as well be hiding from a ghost. That particular situation is fundamentally absurd. If by chance the hunter does start making noise for whatever reason, it is 100% his fault because he wouldn't be getting baited before making a sound unless the survivors are doing a choke point, or the survivor team is moving at snail pace due to the fear of being wallkicked around every corner. If a team were daft enough to be doing this, it would be easy for the infected team to capitalise on it.

If something is to be expected and/or can be predicted its more "skill" ( lets call it game experience no?) then just remove something because you dont wanna think about tactical possibilities?Calling something OP means to me its close to an instant kill or at least a horrible amount of damage without efford and without the chance of doing something against it as a team.(L4D is still no SoloShooter,its a teamgame.)
You are with 4 guys and the sense behind this is too cover each other and play with your brain on or you really wanna call it skill to m2 a hunter or blackpoint skeet some hunter coming straight at you?


What's tactical about wallkicking? It's a cheap alternative to actually learning to use a hunter. There is absolutely no need to wallkick if you are a good hunter. Is it tactical to abuse a mechanic that makes your spawn not only instant but silent as well? Due to the situations I described earlier and the fact that wallkicking can result in 'a horrible amount of damage without effort and without the chance of doing something against it as a team' I would say it is OP. This is how you define OP and wallkicking fits the bill. I don't think you know how to construct an argument if your posts are so empty and unstructured that it is nearly incoherent and supports the argument that you are opposing. One would think that the words of someone who writes so poorly should be worthless. You argue that survivors should be covering eachother and playing smart. That's fine, but you link it to m2ing hunters and ezskeets being unskillful. It's so poorly written that I don't see the link here, if it even exists.

Also you are comparing a silent jock with a hunter.A silent jockey cant be predicted or foreseen when its dropping from a roof.Sure you can say you can cover the roofs but you wanna compare that with the known-fact that a hunter could be prespawned for a WK around a corner?Dont think so.


This is probably the silliest 'argument' you have made so far. I'll make this easy for you to understand how. 'A silent jockey can't be predicted or foreseen'. A wallkicking hunter can't be predicted or foreseen. I don't see the difference here. 'Sure you can say you can cover the roofs...' Even if you did, you can't consistently clear jockeys dropping from the roof silently on your own. With one person covering the roof for silent jockeys, something I would consider ghost hunting, it would take at least 2 shots with a shotgun to clear it on your own. This is generally enough time to land on somebody with only one person covering it. Uzi is also unreliable due to the spread making it impossible to consistently hit, as well as the fact that no one can track perfectly. The point is that you can't perfectly cover the roof on your own, or any spawn point really. So with that cleared up, you compare it to once again predicting that hunters are going to wallkick. Let me make this clear. You simply can't accurately predict whether a hunter is going to be wallkicking or not. Even in the VERY VERY rare scenario where a survivor gets lucky and predicts a wallkick, it is still far easier to land the wallkick than it would be to pounce normally.

Also a WK is not a free cap especially not in promod.In pm just send your team intern m2 god in front -> problem solved.Doubt that?watch some streams from cct2 and later on tournaments and you will see that like a lot.
Also you can always skeet/melee skeet/bait/dodge the WK and even if that doesnt work out a well-placed teammate clears you within seconds and the hunter deals what ,5 damage?


You say wallkicks aren't a free cap, which is true. It is more like an extremely high chance to land because the hunter may screw up his spawn by making a noise, be spotted for whatever reason or get skeeted around the corner by someone shooting a common. The fact that you seem to ignore is that wallkicks can't be accurately predicted and survivors stand very little chance to prevent it from landing. Don't start a config debate either, there will surely be a preference bias if we started bringing config features into it. Your suggested solution to wallkicking is relying on the survivors ability to foresee a hunter prespawned around the corner, not making a sound, waiting to instantly cap the first survivor that comes through. You can't predict wallkicking hunters. Stop disputing that. You also claim that there is plenty of evidence of players using psychic ability to shut down wallkicks. Where are they? Mentioning them isn't enough to make it a solid point for your argument, which again leads me to seriously doubt your knowledge of the game. 'Also you can always skeet/melee skeet/bait/dodge the WK'. No, you can't. You simply can not 'always' skeet/melee skeet/bait/dodge something that is impossible to accurately predict. Nobody can predict every wallkick which is what makes it a broken inconsistent mechanic. Even if you clear the wallkick fast, what if you get spat on? What if another SI is there to attack the wallkick victim? You can inflict heavy and unavoidable damage onto that survivor who had very little chance of avoiding the wallkick in the first place. This is not a balanced mechanic.

Anyway:If a 100% predictable situation is that much of a problem why dont just give the hunter  a sound similar to the anti-silent jockey plug?That way even players with no experience know when a hunter is going to WK around the corner :]


Anyway: Wallkicks aren't 100% predictable which is why its a broken mechanic. Giving the hunter a sound similar to the anti-silent jockey plugin is a terrible idea, on the same level of introducing double-jumping to the game. I actually don't think its even worth explaining how stupid that solution is. Why don't we just make all of the SI silent until they m1? This is pretty much what you guys are arguing for.

just one of those guys

Sam

  • ****
  • Posts: 341
    • View Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2013, 12:54:59 am »
no1 in favor of removing wallkicks has any ground to stand on until they can find some substantial evidence that demonstrates its op-ness like a finals match or of the sort... as bravo suggested.


ps. too much text for me

The Guy

  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2013, 01:12:25 am »
Sam, only teams of quality make it to finals matches. Wallkicking is frowned upon in most communities just like needlessly rushing tanks. Why should we need to use finals teams as a measure of whether or not wallkicks are OP if good teams don't wallkick? Don't post useless comments.

ps. read the thread lol
just one of those guys

epilimic

  • *****
  • Posts: 742
  • Sexy: 9001
    • View Profile
    • buttsecs
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2013, 01:55:59 am »
How hard is it crouch for one second? Not to mention that the hunter is the fastest SI. There is no need to ever wallkick if you are a good hunter, stop relying on broken mechanics.

Who's to say it's a broken mechanic? It's been a thing since launch day, could just as well be intentional. Also nobody said a thing about it being "hard" to crouch first, I'm merely taking advantage of an ability that gets me into play faster and can potentially make the difference between a wipe or not. There's a time to crouch first and a time to wallkick first and I think a good hunter knows the difference between the two.

I don't want to be sitting in a tree holding crouch being noisy waiting to pounce, I want to be able to stand there silently and kick off the branch next to me to land a DP. I see this as an ability that compliments a SI that is supposed to be quiet and sneaky. It's also much faster to kai jump up a wall starting from a wallkick than it is to wait the two seconds crouching. I wanna get my ass up that wall and fast!
what what, in the mutt

Sam

  • ****
  • Posts: 341
    • View Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2013, 02:04:53 am »
Sam, only teams of quality make it to finals matches. Wallkicking is frowned upon in most communities just like needlessly rushing tanks. Why should we need to use finals teams as a measure of whether or not wallkicks are OP if good teams don't wallkick? Don't post useless comments.

ps. read the thread lol
Needlessly rushing tanks? lol? is that a thing? you can rush tanks as much as you want... dont be silly. and no1 in the us scene frowns upon wallkicking... is that a thing in the euro scene? and "teams of quality" use wallkicks all the time... all the time! again dont be silly.

p.s. you talk to much about wallkicks... serisouly that was a fucking thesis.
p.s.s dont be silly.

crebz

  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2013, 02:34:57 am »
Who's to say it's a broken mechanic? It's been a thing since launch day, could just as well be intentional. Also nobody said a thing about it being "hard" to crouch first, I'm merely taking advantage of an ability that gets me into play faster and can potentially make the difference between a wipe or not. There's a time to crouch first and a time to wallkick first and I think a good hunter knows the difference between the two.

I don't want to be sitting in a tree holding crouch being noisy waiting to pounce, I want to be able to stand there silently and kick off the branch next to me to land a DP. I see this as an ability that compliments a SI that is supposed to be quiet and sneaky. It's also much faster to kai jump up a wall starting from a wallkick than it is to wait the two seconds crouching. I wanna get my ass up that wall and fast!
It obviously wasn't an intended feature, why do you think they made it so you have to crouch for one second (not two) before pouncing? If they wanted to hunter to be able to pounce instantly and silently (which they obviously didn't) then they may as well have just let the hunter pounce by pressing mouse1, without crouching or using a wall.

If wallkicking was never a thing, and somebody now suggested adding it to the game, they would get torn to pieces for their idiotic suggestion. You guys really need to stop clinging onto broken mechanics, it not only benefits everyone but also the game itself.

Bravo

  • *****
  • Posts: 916
  • Hi
    • View Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2013, 03:36:23 am »
Sam, only teams of quality make it to finals matches. Wallkicking is frowned upon in most communities just like needlessly rushing tanks. Why should we need to use finals teams as a measure of whether or not wallkicks are OP if good teams don't wallkick? Don't post useless comments.

ps. read the thread lol

I wish I was the type to record my gameplay but i'll have to say that skeeting wallkicked hunters are fairly easy and not impossible, and as far as good teams wallkicking, they do.  I know I do, but it is not OP therefore nobody ever is like oh shit did you see that wallkick? it nearly wiped that team.

and I think we are losing grip of what op means, haymakers were OVER POWERED, 15 ammo hunting rifles with precise accuracy were OVERPOWERED.  Quick hunters arent op, theyre annoying to players who arent experienced/skilled.

And holy shit dude dont type up a dam 2 page essay I bet nobody read your response (no offense).

Bravo

  • *****
  • Posts: 916
  • Hi
    • View Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2013, 03:44:04 am »
It obviously wasn't an intended feature, why do you think they made it so you have to crouch for one second (not two) before pouncing? If they wanted to hunter to be able to pounce instantly and silently (which they obviously didn't) then they may as well have just let the hunter pounce by pressing mouse1, without crouching or using a wall.

If wallkicking was never a thing, and somebody now suggested adding it to the game, they would get torn to pieces for their idiotic suggestion. You guys really need to stop clinging onto broken mechanics, it not only benefits everyone but also the game itself.

If the game started out with no witches and someone came and was like "hey lets add a old lady that incaps you in one strike if you miss her!" everyone would think theyre retarded too.

What you guys are suggesting is not on the right path to making the game more balanced, we make the game competitive by adding things like limits on guns, pause/ready up, pill count, not changing the game factors in their entirety.

Luckylock

  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2013, 04:16:27 am »
There was this one situation where I was the last one standing and somewhat far from my teamates (inside a building) because I had to run away from a tank and finally killed it. When I ran towards my teamate with intention of picking them up, I had to run through a corridor, and I got wallkicked in the face with an impossibly low reaction window. I couldn't have done anything about it because by the time the hunter was appearing on my screen, it had already pounced me because of the latency.

I'd be okay with removing wallkicks... but let's analyse first;

Although it's been part of the game since the start, and, just like fast-climbing, it's a sometimes better alternative. It gives the hunter an extra option of attacking, which I find is legitimate.

Basically, I'm saying that situations where wallkick has caused a team wipe happens rarely, but do.

Now you have the benefits of wallkicking vs "unfair" pounce land...

The survivor's m2 is pretty darn powerful, and if a hunter's wallkick can prevent it from getting m2'd so easily, then I'm okay with that as well.

If m2's were to be removed in a config, I believe wallkicks must be removed as well.

Both sides have very valid points, I'm not sure what would be best though. I think the hunter might need that little suprise attack, even if it makes it near-impossible for survivors to deny the pounce landing. Also, I'm sure nobody likes it when they get wallkicked in the face, because yes it is cheap.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 04:24:32 am by Luckylock »

Bravo

  • *****
  • Posts: 916
  • Hi
    • View Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2013, 04:20:25 am »
There was this one situation where I was the last one standing and somewhat far from my teamates (inside a building) because I had to run away from a tank and finally killed it. When I ran towards my teamate with intention of picking them up, I had to run through a corridor, and I got wallkicked in the face with an impossibly low reaction window. I couldn't have done anything about it because by the time the hunter was appearing on my screen, it had already pounced me because of the latency.

I'd be okay with removing wallkicks... but let's analyse first;

Although it's been part of the game since the start, and, just like fast-climbing, it's a sometimes better alternative. It gives the hunter an extra option of attacking, which I find is legitimate.

Basically, I'm saying that situations where wallkick has caused a team wipe happens rarely, but do.

Now you have the benefits of wallkicking vs "unfair" pounce land...

The survivor's m2 is pretty darn powerful, and if a hunter's wallkick can prevent it from getting m2'd so easily, then I'm okay with that as well. If m2's were to be removed in a config, I believe wallkicks must be removed as well.

Both sides have very valid points, I'm not sure what would be best though. I think the hunter might need that little suprise attack, even if it makes it near-impossible for survivors to deny the pounce landing.

im assuming you only had one teammate left on the ground which means that one hunter didnt really wipe you and even if all 3 were down, STILL that one hunter didnt wipe you it was alot of other things as well but  that just finished you off.  I cant really ever see where this has been an issue, in 2v2s and 1v1s sure, but its never overstayed its welcome in 4v4s =)

Luckylock

  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2013, 04:33:01 am »
im assuming you only had one teammate left on the ground which means that one hunter didnt really wipe you and even if all 3 were down, STILL that one hunter didnt wipe you it was alot of other things as well but  that just finished you off.  I cant really ever see where this has been an issue, in 2v2s and 1v1s sure, but its never overstayed its welcome in 4v4s =)

No my whole team was on the ground and living, still had pills left to make it pretty far after the pickups. Regardless, my story was just to show that it happens. But yes, rarely, a wallkick will be the direct cause of a wipe. We have to ask ourselves if those wipes are legitimate, or the result of a cheap tactic?

I personally think it's a cheap tactic, but overall the game's more enjoyable as SI with wallkicks allowed. It's a nice solution to prevent getting m2'd and land your pounce with a suprise attack.

Wallkicks are very nice to have for hunters, as previously stated (get up walls faster, etc...)

So like, I'd allow wallkicking if m2's are allowed.
And remove wallkicking if m2's are removed.

As for the 1v1, 2v2 and etc hunter configs, I think it's personal preference, and you should have the option to either disable or enable it. (I think it's only disabled in some servers, and only in 1v1 configs. I have yet to see it disabled for 2v2s, 3v3s or 4v4s).

For hunter configs, remember the vote we used to do at some point to either disable or enable addons? I'm thinking maybe a similar vote to either disable or enable wallkicks when you start up a hunters only config, as it plays a pretty big part.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 04:44:38 am by Luckylock »

Visor

  • *
  • Posts: 1149
    • View Profile
    • Steam Profile
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2013, 05:17:37 am »
... remember the vote we used to do at some point to either disable or enable addons?

It has disappeared due to Valve's own method superceeding my implementation. But with Left4Downtown v0.5.7 you can bring that vote back... If you want.

As for this thread, I think I've seen pretty much enough. As usual, people can only really judge by their own experience. Bravo, for instance, thinks wallkicks should stay because international top tier teams from (semi)finals don't have any problems with them. What can I say, I'm grateful for any feedback, but feedback is feedback and not a fact. There are tens of other teams who don't have to learn to adapt to unpredictable / artificially complicated mechanics. Keeping wallkicks in configs with no M2 was only justified when the only way of preventing them was by killing the hunter, which is a no-go for >1v1 modes. Now since they've been rendered blockable, I really don't see anything bad in removing them along with deadstops. However if the latter stay, probably keeping wallkicks is worth it, to prevent overly self-confident rushers from looking too optimistic in the future. But that's a matter of preference, and, of course, the config.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 05:23:42 am by Visor »
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

nikeon

  • ****
  • Posts: 459
  • To Err is human,to GET SOME! is divine.
    • View Profile
    • MyTube.
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2013, 05:33:12 am »
Sam, only teams of quality make it to finals matches. Wallkicking is frowned upon in most communities just like needlessly rushing tanks. Why should we need to use finals teams as a measure of whether or not wallkicks are OP if good teams don't wallkick? Don't post useless comments.

ps. read the thread lol

I will use this quote as response to your big text thingie since the rest is just too long.

Your saying Im argueing like a 5 y old?Better look in the mirror.Good teams dont wallkick?
Everyone does it,even good teams.
Your saying a situation caused by bad survivor play is the result of an "OP" feature?Thats also just stupid.
Idk how much experience (Tournaments/Scrims) you actually have but here were at least 3 other  experienced Players who stated that Wking is predictable and something to be expected and i think that pretty much takes away all points of your argumentation.

Ofc you cant say a Wallkick is going to happen or not after the next corner since you -normally- cant look through walls- BUT you can expect if they have a hunter a Wk might be something after that corner,so you play more carefull and try to bait it or whatever.

And just because im too lazy to get rid of your other "arguments" im repeating it one more time : Find One Tournament game(dont even care if group phase or finals) where a wallkick decided a game or was the cause of an immense amount of damage for no reason.

If you cant provide this ,its pretty obv that Wking is nothing OP and just a matter of your own survivor play how you deal with it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 05:37:22 am by nikeon »

epilimic

  • *****
  • Posts: 742
  • Sexy: 9001
    • View Profile
    • buttsecs
Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2013, 09:47:27 am »
It obviously wasn't an intended feature, why do you think they made it so you have to crouch for one second (not two) before pouncing? If they wanted to hunter to be able to pounce instantly and silently (which they obviously didn't) then they may as well have just let the hunter pounce by pressing mouse1, without crouching or using a wall.

If wallkicking was never a thing, and somebody now suggested adding it to the game, they would get torn to pieces for their idiotic suggestion. You guys really need to stop clinging onto broken mechanics, it not only benefits everyone but also the game itself.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I've always seen it as a feature. Neither you nor I have any actual idea about what valve's intentions were. All we know for certain is that it has been there since launch day. Perception is everything.
what what, in the mutt

 

A dedicated community website to competitive L4D and L4D2, ran by the community, for the community. L4DNation supports all continents of play and focuses on bringing together the community as a whole to a central hub of information.