Author Topic: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4  (Read 15182 times)

Visor

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Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« on: December 29, 2013, 04:36:02 pm »
Keep/remove silent hunter wallkicks in 4v4? Your opinions please.

My own opinion is, intentional feature or not, this makes the hunter OP and should be removed. It's already blocked in most 1v1s so why not go further and do the same with other modes. Sure it's a good built-in antirush solution but ping/lerp is way too decisive in this scenario. Unless both are low, the survivor, most likely, won't be able to self-clear(unless lucky). I think hunter wallkicks are almost like the taser gun(Zeus x27) from CS:GO. Nice thing for fun, but OP for competitive modes(and thus removed from them).

To clarify: I'm not talking about killing the hunter attempting a wallkick. This is a horrid solution, implemented in a popular L4D1 plugin by someone who had no idea that it can actually be blocked. I've made a plugin for it a long time ago and it works fine. The only downside to it is the client prediction: hunter attempting a wallkick will have his view twitch for a moment. The higher the ping, the longer the client will have to "wait" for confirmation(or rather infirmation) from the server that his last attempted pounce is not "legit" and thus not allowed.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 04:39:04 pm by Visor »
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

crebz

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2013, 04:41:17 pm »
Yes please, there really is no excuse for wallkicking now that deadstop is disabled. And with the amount players complain about 'silent' jockeys I really don't see why silent hunters should be allowed.

Visor

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2013, 04:42:51 pm »
Yeah I think this will make its way into EQ2.1, but the topic covers PM as well. And thanks for your input!
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

Bravo

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 05:35:19 pm »
only scenario I could think of where it could be op is when one survivor remains running for points and gets wallkicked.  Even at that point experienced players are always aware of spawn timers and the chance there could be a hunter around the corner which calls for a run at the corner and take two steps back in order to try to bait the spawn out.  I dont think its op.

NF

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2013, 06:40:38 pm »
I think it's pretty much an exploit/oversight by valve, but I don't think it's OP. In most situations, you should know when spawns are up, and you can bait a hunter wallkick if you think he's around a corner.

Sam

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2013, 12:23:37 am »
keep it. Its no more op than a smoker in an open field.

The Guy

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2013, 01:32:24 am »
The way I see it, wallkicking should be removed from 4v4.

It's an unintended and unnecessary mechanic that allows for an instant and nearly unavoidable cap that can only really be denied by dumb luck or horrid infected play. A single wallkick can allow for so much undeserved damage when relied on for SI attacks. For example, if a spitter were to pre-spit as the hunter wallkicks a survivor, there is nothing you can do to avoid absorbing a huge amount of damage. What exactly is this punishing? It essentially rewards SI with massive damage for silent pouncing from anywhere and 'meticulously calculating' where to aim your spit. Even in a game with a nerfed spitter, it is still very high damage for something that can only be evaded with pure luck.

Even in the absence of a spitter, wallkicking can be a map winner if a team were desperate enough. If a hunter wallkicked and won a double or triple stumble as the rest of his team arrives, you might as well be forcing the survivors to pull their pants down and accept the red rod of punishment. How can it be justified to allow for survivors to be stumbled as a result of a certain 'hooded shark' materialising on top of someone with no warning? This unfairly and significantly increases the chance of the rest of the SI team landing. Wallkicking has no place in competitive configs.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 01:35:32 am by The Guy »
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nikeon

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 02:15:34 am »
While Im seeing where Visor is coming from ,i also dont think WK is OP.

Yes its silent,sort of, but as mentioned before a player should always be aware that spawns are up and stuff can happen.

In an 1v1 (rest of team dead) Situation ofc the hunter has a some advantage with the possibility of a WK but come on whats with the last man standing smoker?Same shit.

Sure one can say you can cut the tongue and kill it but one can also say you can skeet the WK(shotgun/melee, in promod you can even m2 it) or simply bait it.Idk why the intention is always to kick stuff out that is a bit difficult to do.

The Removal of m2(at least in eq) was the first good thing that happened since a longer time,why take now something away again from Infected/Hunters that is only a real advantage in a situation where other teammates are dead or at least really far splitted(if thats the case its also not OP thats a mayor mistake in your gameplay).

The situations described by The Guy are also not really a reason.If you rush blindly around a corner with 4 guys lined up for a perfect stumble its the hunter WK to blame you get stumbled/spitted/damaged?I would think of playing more carefully instead of blaming an "OP" feature but thats just me.   
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 02:17:18 am by nikeon »

The Guy

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 02:51:10 am »
The situations described by The Guy are also not really a reason.If you rush blindly around a corner with 4 guys lined up for a perfect stumble its the hunter WK to blame you get stumbled/spitted/damaged?I would think of playing more carefully instead of blaming an "OP" feature but thats just me.   


How can you say they aren't a reason if they are perfectly valid? You haven't really explained why its not a reason aside from giving an empty argument that doesn't really make much sense. While it would be rare to get a triple stumble off a wallkick, it is still possible and is a valid point of discussion. Regardless of that particular situation, a wallkick that doesn't stumble can still be effective due to the shock it creates for the survivor team, who instinctively focus on their capped team mate and once again unfairly raises the chances of the rest of the SI attack to land, while unfairly inflicting damage on the pounced survivor who had no chance to react to the hunter. This is the only reason you have given in saying my examples aren't a reason for removing wallkicks. Don't create a bias by saying my points aren't valid without thinking about it first.

Is wallkicking, which is essentially allowing for a free cap with little effort and almost no chance to miss, the hallmark of a competitive game? We might as well get rid of the plugin that fixes silent jockeys if we want to phase out skillful gameplay.

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nikeon

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2013, 03:18:46 am »
You were describing a situation where infected would get a lot of damage out of a tripple or quad stumble out of a WK which is not rare its close to impossible.If that happens its 100% the fault of the Survivor Play and not the Hunter been able to WK.You could have also eaten a quad charge (rocket spawn,bhop) or gotten this damage by the same hunter if he would make a sound.

Wk creates a shock?I dunno you can always count spawns and everyone knows around 99% of all possible scenarios at any point so i dont see there is anything suprising anymore.Only question to ask when spawns are up,where is what exactly coming from.
If you eat a WK around some corner, which is the only suprising situation a WK can be "shocking" if you want so,you played just careless.You know WK`s can happen ,especially around corners so why just run into it without baiting it or getting a well-placed cover by your teammate.

If something is to be expected and/or can be predicted its more "skill" ( lets call it game experience no?) then just remove something because you dont wanna think about tactical possibilities?Calling something OP means to me its close to an instant kill or at least a horrible amount of damage without efford and without the chance of doing something against it as a team.(L4D is still no SoloShooter,its a teamgame.)
You are with 4 guys and the sense behind this is too cover each other and play with your brain on or you really wanna call it skill to m2 a hunter or blackpoint skeet some hunter coming straight at you?

Also you are comparing a silent jock with a hunter.A silent jockey cant be predicted or foreseen when its dropping from a roof.Sure you can say you can cover the roofs but you wanna compare that with the known-fact that a hunter could be prespawned for a WK around a corner?Dont think so.

Also a WK is not a free cap especially not in promod.In pm just send your team intern m2 god in front -> problem solved.Doubt that?watch some streams from cct2 and later on tournaments and you will see that like a lot.
Also you can always skeet/melee skeet/bait/dodge the WK and even if that doesnt work out a well-placed teammate clears you within seconds and the hunter deals what ,5 damage?

Anyway:If a 100% predictable situation is that much of a problem why dont just give the hunter  a sound similar to the anti-silent jockey plug?That way even players with no experience know when a hunter is going to WK around the corner :]
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 03:28:58 am by nikeon »

Bravo

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2013, 03:36:32 am »
No need for all these SPECIFIC arguments.

Bottom line is no skilled survivor can be EASILY pounce spit on with this mechanic, every skillfull game ive watched or participated in has never been affected by this.  I challenge you to find a quarter-finals / semi-finals or good luck with this but a finals match in a tournament where a wallkick successfully landed and moderate to huge damage was the outcome.  I guarantee you will find none. 

Leave shit like this alone, we should be focusing on things like removing shit props and going back to the basics.  This game only needs a stable 4-6 pill count + witch/tank + tier 1 + pause/ready-up.  stop over complicating things.

nikeon

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2013, 03:45:20 am »
No need for all these SPECIFIC arguments.

Bottom line is no skilled survivor can be EASILY pounce spit on with this mechanic, every skillfull game ive watched or participated in has never been affected by this.  I challenge you to find a quarter-finals / semi-finals or good luck with this but a finals match in a tournament where a wallkick successfully landed and moderate to huge damage was the outcome.  I guarantee you will find none. 

Leave shit like this alone, we should be focusing on things like removing shit props and going back to the basics.  This game only needs a stable 4-6 pill count + witch/tank + tier 1 + pause/ready-up.  stop over complicating things.

I´d love to see a config with only 4 total pills,1 witch,1 tank,  max pauses and a autoforced ready up(autoforcestart ready up after 2 or max 3 mins) , no-m2 against hunters and a score system that makes sense.

Fully supporting this.


epilimic

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2013, 06:35:31 am »
Nope, I think they should stay in 4v4. Wallkicks are useful in a number of situations where you don't want to crouch first to pounce, and I'm not talking about little quick kicks when someone steps around the corner. Most of the time I start off my pounces with wallkicks instead of crouches because simply you can get going faster and get to where you need to be without the survivors hearing the pre-pounce growl. It's an efficient way of starting your attack and while it has no place in 1v1's because of the quick kicks, it definitely should stay in 4v4.

If you really think this is a big deal then you should block the ability to land a pounce if a wallkick starts the pounce and a successful pounce lands within 1 second or something. Don't block the functionality from those of use who utilize it in a legitimately efficient manner for all the other attacks.
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Artifacial

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2013, 07:10:26 am »
Or just permit m2s to register on wallkicked hunters.

Other than what epi said, the only times I see wallkicked hunters lead to large amounts of damage are when survivors burst in to a small room with spawns up (wallkick first person in, charge others rushing in to try and clear, spit, gg). Even without hunters, blindly running in to small rooms like that is a pretty stupid thing to do, and I'm guessing most people would at least quickly bait/check if SI are in the room or spawn up before actually entering it (i.e. a room that comes to mind is DK2, if you rush hard after the first attack and manage to get inside, more often than not the next attack will be in that small room at the end, and you'd expect a hunter to be in there and wallkick). Feigning going in to that room and quickly backing out is a pretty effective way to negate those sort of attacks, and I'd wager most people do that?

I think hunters in general have become a bit of a nuisance in EQ. I'm definitely not a fan of the level of m2'ing in PM (it seems survivors can just spam m2 and half of the time it registers on a hunter), but I'm also not a fan of it completely being removed. When you're boomed with an uzi it's more or less a free hunt, and it doesn't take a particularly skillful hunter to land on you (and despite what some people say, when you're being bumped by common, you can't necessarily aim at a hunter pouncing low at you from a small distance away with uzi). You couple that with spit, and you can take a bit of damage. I know there's an argument of it placing more emphasis on clears, but its still in many cases a free cap. I think middle ground should be met - increase the m2 delay to a point where a survivor has perhaps one chance to get an m2 off. At the very least, it gives the survivor a chance not to be cheaply capped, and yet allows the hunter to bait the m2 before pouncing, and not worry about being m2d simply by spam. Added to that frustration is the fact that m2s occasionally actually register when they're not supposed to. I'd at least rather consistent over random gameplay (unless this has been fixed in a recent left4downtown update?).

crebz

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Re: Wallkicks/backjumps in 4v4
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2013, 01:54:19 pm »
Nope, I think they should stay in 4v4. Wallkicks are useful in a number of situations where you don't want to crouch first to pounce, and I'm not talking about little quick kicks when someone steps around the corner. Most of the time I start off my pounces with wallkicks instead of crouches because simply you can get going faster and get to where you need to be without the survivors hearing the pre-pounce growl. It's an efficient way of starting your attack and while it has no place in 1v1's because of the quick kicks, it definitely should stay in 4v4.

If you really think this is a big deal then you should block the ability to land a pounce if a wallkick starts the pounce and a successful pounce lands within 1 second or something. Don't block the functionality from those of use who utilize it in a legitimately efficient manner for all the other attacks.
How hard is it crouch for one second? Not to mention that the hunter is the fastest SI. There is no need to ever wallkick if you are a good hunter, stop relying on broken mechanics.

Or just permit m2s to register on wallkicked hunters.
No, this is worse than the other idea of making wallkicks unable to land. Why try to fix an unnecessary mechanic when it can just be removed.

I think hunters in general have become a bit of a nuisance in EQ. I'm definitely not a fan of the level of m2'ing in PM (it seems survivors can just spam m2 and half of the time it registers on a hunter), but I'm also not a fan of it completely being removed. When you're boomed with an uzi it's more or less a free hunt, and it doesn't take a particularly skillful hunter to land on you (and despite what some people say, when you're being bumped by common, you can't necessarily aim at a hunter pouncing low at you from a small distance away with uzi). You couple that with spit, and you can take a bit of damage. I know there's an argument of it placing more emphasis on clears, but its still in many cases a free cap. I think middle ground should be met - increase the m2 delay to a point where a survivor has perhaps one chance to get an m2 off. At the very least, it gives the survivor a chance not to be cheaply capped, and yet allows the hunter to bait the m2 before pouncing, and not worry about being m2d simply by spam. Added to that frustration is the fact that m2s occasionally actually register when they're not supposed to. I'd at least rather consistent over random gameplay (unless this has been fixed in a recent left4downtown update?).
Even with the max m2 penalty (which definitely should be added to the 4v4 configs) its still ridiculously easy to deadstop a hunter. Removing deadstops was one of the best things to happen to this game as of late, why should it be added back in just because you choose to take a gun that is less effective against hunters and fail to pop the boomer? And the only time I see 'deadstops' register when they shouldn't is when the hunter lands on the survivors head, but the hunter can easily avoid this happening (until it hopefully gets fixed).
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 01:55:53 pm by crebz »

 

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