Author Topic: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)  (Read 4825 times)

Dragon

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Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« on: September 05, 2013, 03:55:07 am »
There is a discussion about this in the EQ Cup #2 steam group. Because it is an international cup, there were a few points raised from CCT2 about certain inequalities when home and away matches figured into the equation. One way of addressing that is to enforce in the 2nd match the exact same tank and witch spawn percentages as they appeared in the 1st match, which I don't imagine anyone would object to as it's in the interest of maintaining consistency and equality for both teams.

The 2nd method however, seems controversial to some and is going to draw a lot of mixes opinions based on matters such as its necessity, how exploitable the system is and what consequences it will lead to. I will copy-paste from the steam group: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/eqcup2/discussions/0/846963165586884479/

"Most of you will have read about this in the rules and are probably unsure about what it is exactly. Well, it is a controversial and an exploitable system, which is why we are imposing bans for individuals and disqualification for teams who try to cheat the system.

Let me explain to you the following example: Team A is from the Netherlands and on their home server, they enjoy an average 15 ping for the whole team, which is a huge advantage in an international contest. They play Team B who is from America (and to illustrate this example further, let's say that there is an American player residing in each of the 4 time zones). Their pings to a Netherlands server will vary according to the time zone they live in. A player from New York will probably have 80-100 ping, but a player from California could have almost 200 ping.

Then what happens when the American team has the home game? Their home server could be located in New York, in which case the whole Netherlands team may have 80-100 ping. But this will be the same ping for the player connecting from California, in what is the home game for his team.

Another scenario similar to this is to picture the Netherlands team vs a Russian team which has 1 or 2 players from eastern Russia or a nation like Kazakhstan. Despite home and away matches in play, there is still a very noticeable inequality in terms of ping. Teams that are based in smaller countries can get a big advantage, whilst those who live in more geographically expansive nations are at an overall disadvantage.

So basically, this discussion is about gathering honest opinions on the PCP system and whether you believe it's right for it to be introduced. Depending on the reaction, it could influence whether the PCP system is used or if it is abandoned. But even though it might seem controversial to some, be aware that it is intended to establish equality and fair play in international contests."

I don't have time to explain a full example right now, but picture this: PCP works both ways for both teams in a home-away contest, so when the away team gets PCP, so will the other team in the next match. The only difference in the end is that it would compensate for the players who have overall higher pings to contend with in both matches, those who live in much larger nations or further away from the servers than everyone else. So if an American team was playing a Euro team and the Americans choose a New York server for their home game, then PCP will compensate overall for any players based in California or Western Canada for example.

sinclair

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2013, 04:03:55 am »
speaking from an american standpoint, no one really plays with / needs 15-20 ping. if there is an american team as diverse as you described, the best solution would be, as implemented in the cct2 finals, to use a dallas server, as that's what they are used to anyway.

Jacob

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2013, 04:28:11 am »
I'm against it. High ping isn't fun. Giving me higher ping for whatever reason would just piss me off.

Sir

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 04:59:32 am »
I have to say it's an interesting idea, the abbreviation for it alone is already a big plus in my book.
However, I'm not too sure if this is really worth the effort.

Being able to set the same tank/witch spawns is awesome because then it'll definitely be more balanced for both teams, seeing as high ping obviously has it's disadvantages at early tanks. I think this is actually enough of a "fix".
Seeing as the teams get to pick their Home Server, the pings should already be fair enough, getting more points because the ping difference was a tad bit higher than on the other server doesn't really sound like it justifies getting free points.
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THyroXIN´-

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 05:17:24 am »
no ping points, but same spawns for tank/with and pills etc would be awesome.

I would like to see interp forced to one specific value for all and both sides.
No lerp toggle -> no long tank arms -> same condition for all

like all have to use 0.0167 for example.

This is a common rule in other games such as Counter Strike.

Sir

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2013, 05:26:42 am »
No lerp toggle -> no long tank arms -> same condition for all

like all have to use 0.0167 for example.

This is a common rule in other games such as Counter Strike.

Woah, lerp is a very sensitive subject in the L4D2 Community, careful with what you say! ;D
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THyroXIN´-

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2013, 06:09:58 am »
i know and i dont expect to get positiv feedback on that :) but asking should be allowed.

Dragon

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2013, 06:19:04 am »
Ok, based on what's being said so far, we are leaning towards abandoning the PCP system for EQ Cup #2.

I felt it was necessary to bring it up because there were a few complaints in CCT2 where teams believed they were at a disadvantage even with home-away matches. And apart from the impossible scenario of gathering everyone worldwide for a LAN cup, this was really the only other alternative towards addressing that concern.

But if and when it is fully abandoned, I for one will not take any complaints about pings seriously. It will be too late to moan about it during the cup when a possible solution was offered here but not enough people spoke up about it. So anyone who feels differently from what others have said in this thread, now is the time to have your say.

no ping points, but same spawns for tank/with and pills etc would be awesome.

I would like to see interp forced to one specific value for all and both sides.
No lerp toggle -> no long tank arms -> same condition for all

like all have to use 0.0167 for example.

This is a common rule in other games such as Counter Strike.

Although I like the general idea, this community in regards to lerp is almost as far away from unanimous accord as a catholic nun and a porn star debating their views on sex. Some players swear by their lerp settings and will never budge from their position. It was difficult in the 1st EQ Cup to get European teams used to no lerp toggling as players in those days used to obsess about finding the right lerp for tank arms and then switching to 0-10 for survivor rounds.

Lerp toggling is banned in this upcoming cup too, but I don't think you'll ever see the same forced lerp rates for everyone. Especially teams new to the comp scene will be used to 100 lerp as that's the default rate.

nikeon

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2013, 06:33:30 am »
1.) Same Tank/Witch Spawns is great ofc.

2.)Im not that convinced of the system since it might be more efford then worth it.Your Home ping shouldnt matter that much in server choice.Imo the visitor ping should be somewhat equal and the conditions are ok for both sites -> you just cant do any better then that.

You wont find server that matches for both parties in every aspect,all you can do is find 2 servers where both visitors have pretty much the same pings.

Its harder to play with a visitor ping of 200+ms since it makes a big differ from what is actually playable then with a home ping of 80-100 which doesnt make that much of a differ to a lets say 20ms home ping.

Noone will ever be able to tell that he lost a game because they had one guy with 80 ms on their home server while the opps had all 16 ms.

More then this, Kids will try to exploit (you might have that covered with saying you get punished directly,but we all know how kids in l4d2 are).

Kids will complain and accuse the system being fail and that other kids exploited and whatsoever.Sure you dont have to proof shit but you are stucked in endless discussions about nothing. All in All you will have the same work,if not more, to figure the stuff out so you could better just make it an admin call each match where to play.


Oh and btw : The main Prob in cct with  some games was mostly not the ping itself.  The Problem was mostly that especially the australian and most american servers were just poorly configured and optimized that people had to deal with extreme high chokes and such.The final was such a matter : We had to rent the SirPlease Dallas Servers because in first place Velocity made clear that they wouldnt have played on the other NA servers(while puppy palace was too far for eu to take) since the choke and spikes were just a joke.Both Teams couldnt agree and Loaded even were about to give a defwin in case i would have decided to let them play in chicago so we came up with a perfectly fine server in dallas ourselves and the game went without problem.

All in All : name official Servers for each region-Servers that are equal in performance- and just dont allow any others -> Admin call on the games -> Problem solved.




Oh and for Lerp : I tried that plenty of times, hf convincing people , you have no clue how childish this community can be if its about something like lerp (while im sure 90% still have no clue what lerp actually does or is for)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 06:39:29 am by nikeon »

Dyl Dough

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2013, 06:38:20 am »
The most disadvantaged community when it comes to ping is the North American Community if we are talking on a "home/away" scale. This is because, including Canada, we are more than 3 times the size of Europe. If you were to create a teams in the US based off skill level the teams would have players from all around. In the US it's standard to play Dallas/Chicago for a reason because most people get even ping there. Europeans are so used to the 20 ms because of how small their countries are, and most Europeans I've met on this game don't take into consideration the difference between our situation and their own. I know I rustled jimmies in CCT2 because my team was put in a position to play at a huge disadvantage on our "home server" compared to "away."

I personally agree with memory on getting a plug in that allows tanks and witches to be at the same percentage each game. I was saying that all throughout CCT2 because some teams would be disadvantaged depending on the tank spawns which would make it either harder or easier to catch up depending on the situation. For us to expand to a global community and keep the game truly active this is an essential step.

Ping issues are never going to be solved while this community is around unless we LAN shit, but if we make an honest attempt at the home/away server thing implemented in CCT2 and people actually receive and aren't conned into doing unfair servers (this did happen in my opinion) then we could actually have great tournament games focused on who truly does better on their server and who can deal with high ping. Yes, it puts another metagame into tournament play, but I think if we don't do something like this. L4d2 is just going to be all about the PUG life in NA, many tournaments without prizes for Euros/RUS and casual gameplay/few tournaments for asians.

EDIT: If there is a small difference in overall ms for a match. It's one of those things that you're just gonna have to deal with because there's nothing you can do about it if servers were fairly picked based off location. There's no point in getting mad about it just try your best with what you have and stop your fucking bitching.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 06:40:26 am by Dyl Dough »

Dragon

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2013, 06:48:14 am »
I personally agree with memory on getting a plug in that allows tanks and witches to be at the same percentage each game. I was saying that all throughout CCT2 because some teams would be disadvantaged depending on the tank spawns which would make it either harder or easier to catch up depending on the situation. For us to expand to a global community and keep the game truly active this is an essential step.

Yes, I remember you and I having our private mumble discussion about that during the interlude of a delayed match (was it Velocity vs nv-?) and we were thinking "why hasn't this been thought of before?" Felt like years ago  :D

Dyl Dough

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2013, 06:49:36 am »
Yes I still feel like some of the matches turned in peoples favor due to tank spawns. I think it made a huge effect.

nikeon

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2013, 06:50:44 am »
Europeans are so used to the 20 ms because of how small their countries are, and most Europeans I've met on this game don't take into consideration the difference between our situation and their own. I know I rustled jimmies in CCT2 because my team was put in a position to play at a huge disadvantage on our "home server" compared to "away."


maybe you wanna come to germany and ask around what internet speeds people have in here in average.Only a small amount of people actually have this "20 ms". For me personally and I even have perfect routing i have 68-75 ms on every euro server  /100-140 on russians since where i am living there is just no faster internet, That goes for a lot people and is no differ to the NA people. The difference is that you guys have indeed a bigger country and mix up from everywhere but you dont had any disadvantage in eg the finals where dallas and eu was put as servers.  Sure Velocity guys all 4 have strong Internet so they have extreme low home pings but visitor pings were the same and like statted noone ever lost a game because their home average was 70 instead of 20.

Visor

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2013, 07:22:49 am »
I see most people love the idea of forcing the same boss spawn coordinates. Now I'm thinking about what would be better: replicating the percents from the first match, or allowing admins to elaborate spawn sets and apply them manually in-game? This will most likely remain a permanent feature of EQ2.x instead of being a one-time cup gimmick. So, cup organisers, choose wisely!
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

Dyl Dough

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Re: Ping Compensation Points (PCP)
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2013, 07:35:57 am »

maybe you wanna come to germany and ask around what internet speeds people have in here in average.Only a small amount of people actually have this "20 ms". For me personally and I even have perfect routing i have 68-75 ms on every euro server  /100-140 on russians since where i am living there is just no faster internet, That goes for a lot people and is no differ to the NA people. The difference is that you guys have indeed a bigger country and mix up from everywhere but you dont had any disadvantage in eg the finals where dallas and eu was put as servers.  Sure Velocity guys all 4 have strong Internet so they have extreme low home pings but visitor pings were the same and like statted noone ever lost a game because their home average was 70 instead of 20.

From my experience playing on EU servers it seems that the majority of people have below 40 ms. In the US don't even get that unless the server is within like 3 hour drive of you. It can take up to 14 hours to just drive west - east across Texas. That means that most people who are even from Texas don't even get the ms that most Euros do to the many servers you guys have at your disposal. So yes, thank you for cementing the fact that I'm right, and I'm sorry you're one of the few with "slow" Internet. When in reality it's not even bad ping you get to your own servers it's what most Americans/Canadians get every time they play as well.

As to Visor, I think it should be able to be implemented through a vote by the players in the server. This way admins are not necessary to start matches. It could also be utilized in 4v4 scrims/pcws/etc between international teams/friends. Just make it a vote command like it used to be !tankspawnvote or something ya know? I'm not experienced at all with coding, but I'm sure one of you is capable of writing that plug in. You and Sir especially are the best coders in the community imo.

 

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