Author Topic: Compfogl?  (Read 5180 times)

Machiavellus

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Compfogl?
« on: August 11, 2014, 06:34:19 am »
So I've been working on a config(I've forked promod 3.7.1). Yes there are thousands of them and it doesn't matter, tested it out in some pugs seemed to work well, but that's not a very good gauge. I'd like to hear some of the biggest issues people had with 3.7.1. Issues in general. And I'd rather it not be a bunch of stupid polls. So far I've heard frequently that people would like me to base it off of 3.3ish? era PM, I want to hear WHAT made that era of PM so appealing, and what's making the modern one so unappealing. I want as much input from as many people and teams as possible, and I want to release it once and never have to update it again except in the case of bugs/exploit fixes and the like. I will be releasing a public beta for anyone interested very shortly, but I'd like as much input from the community as possible before I do that. AND WHAT THAT MEANS. Is don't just post here. Talk to the people you know that don't come on this forum. Get their feedback to me somehow. Between this forum, pugging, and steam/mumble conversations we should be able to come to some common ground. Also if you can come up with a name for it that isn't as shitty as compfogl I'll put you in the credits after the long list of people ending with me.
This game would be perfect if only we removed everything from it and installed CS instead.

疑問に思う

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2014, 08:26:27 am »
Promod 3.3 featured the tweak of God frames to reward spit damage, it also included the pill passing plugin. I think players are just nostalgic about when the CFG made sense and it wasn't being filled with stuff that it doesn't matter (propane, bile bombs etc).

For your config, dude.. Just remove glows. Change the scene.. It is time for someone to have the balls to introduce a No glows competitive cfg in North America and make people play it.

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2014, 10:35:57 am »
Oh, and change the hittable weight.
"People will question all the good things they hear about you but believe all the bad without a second thought." - Anonymous

VinnioD

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2014, 11:21:49 am »
Promod 3.3 featured the tweak of God frames to reward spit damage, it also included the pill passing plugin. I think players are just nostalgic about when the CFG made sense and it wasn't being filled with stuff that it doesn't matter (propane, bile bombs etc).

For your config, dude.. Just remove glows. Change the scene.. It is time for someone to have the balls to introduce a No glows competitive cfg in North America and make people play it.



If i'm not mistaking Sir made smtg like that. In EU there was a very active realism vs group. This was based on promod 3.3.3. (details can be found here: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/RVSgroup/discussions/0/792924412527706965/ ). I always really liked playing realism versus. Problem is that in almost all EU mixes there's no communication with mumble or teamspeak.
Then realism is just too hard.

fig newtons

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2014, 12:18:45 pm »
Natural horde is totally broken and unnecessary anyway. At this point, take that out and 4.0.1 is a great config.

Gameplay in 3.6-3.7.1 is very close to ideal. If anyone wants to make a forked config with more radical changes like removing glows, you're welcome but recent experience seems to have shown that radical changes aren't needed nor wanted by the community.

I submit that what the config needs more than anything is nuts and bolts dev work like:

- a streamlined development and release cycle
- actually releasing the source code for the plugins like the license requires, which means putting together the sources for all the plugins in the distribution package
- getting rid of the plugins we don't need/use and updating the out-of-date plugins
- install scripts that use procedural logic to guarantee they play nice with other configs, or warn if plugins are being over-written
- a sane workflow that eliminates the tedium of pushing promod updates "downstream" to the subprojects as well (pm2v2, etc) and keeps them up to date

That sort of thing.

疑問に思う

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2014, 01:04:09 pm »
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/RVSgroup/discussions/0/792924412527706965/ ).
Then realism is just too hard.


I remember that group. Thora was such a legendary character, sir was a nice admin also. I had to stop playing there because of very high pings. Your name VinnioD is not strange to me..

Natural horde is totally broken and unnecessary anyway. At this point, take that out and 4.0.1 is a great config.

Gameplay in 3.6-3.7.1 is very close to ideal. If anyone wants to make a forked config with more radical changes like removing glows, you're welcome but recent experience seems to have shown that radical changes aren't needed nor wanted by the community.

I submit that what the config needs more than anything is nuts and bolts dev work like:

- a streamlined development and release cycle
- actually releasing the source code for the plugins like the license requires, which means putting together the sources for all the plugins in the distribution package
- getting rid of the plugins we don't need/use and updating the out-of-date plugins
- install scripts that use procedural logic to guarantee they play nice with other configs, or warn if plugins are being over-written
- a sane workflow that eliminates the tedium of pushing promod updates "downstream" to the subprojects as well (pm2v2, etc) and keeps them up to date

That sort of thing.


Having projects organized is 50% of every development process but above this there needs to be a common ground on the path that cfgs should follow. You speak about structure, i speak about union and the existance of a common line of thought.

Zeon

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2014, 01:29:21 pm »
For your config, dude.. Just remove glows. Change the scene.. It is time for someone to have the balls to introduce a No glows competitive cfg in North America and make people play it.

RIP people with no mics, dividing the community more.

Moscow

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2014, 01:34:38 pm »
Could you post a complete list of the config's changes from promod? I know someone explained them to me at one point, but I don't have the convo saved anywhere. Anyway, here's a list of stuff I've wanted in promod and would be cool to see in compfogl.

Things I actually want
  • Provide survivors with two sets of pills each upon exiting the saferoom. There's a pub mod that makes pipe bombs usable twice, so you could probably just lift the code from that.
  • Pills now provide 40 temporary health and don't begin decaying for a short amount of time. (Maybe the time it would take for 10 temp health to decay normally?) This whole thing would probably need to be tweaked to a different amount or changed to some other downside. Just something to offset the initial eight sets of pills.
  • Spawn two melees, one deagle, and an infinite pistol in each saferoom.
  • Remove all pill and secondary weapon spawns outside of the saferoom.

----
  • !current percentage changed to work with !tank percentage better.
  • The AI tank can't move before a player takes control.
  • Block the AI tank from climbing things without using a ladder.
  • Block the AI tank from pounding on downed survivors. I don't know if this and the previous one are doable, but they're not terribly important either way.
  • AI specials are kicked immediately unless capping a survivor.
  • Reduce the damage the scout deals to tanks.

----
  • Spit damage changed to a value everyone can agree on. 
  • All specials now work like the jockey and deal continuous damage instead of in bursts. Damage over time is unchanged.
  • Godframes no longer apply to hittables.

----
  • Consistent spit spread. Supposedly not viable.
  • Static shotgun spread. This was being tested at one point but I don't think it ever went anywhere.

----
  • Limit melee weapons to two or decrease all of their swing speeds.
  • Limit deagle to one.
  • I don't remember if your config had it or not, but without tank slowdown the two uzi limit is unnecessary.

----
  • Remove modded m16.
  • REMOVE M2 TELEPORTING YOUR SPECIAL GHOST TO THE SURVIVORS. I've sacced so many hits because of this and everyone I've asked about it hates it too.
  • Remove natural horde.
  • Remove bile.
  • Remove propane/oxy.
  • Block/nerf to death miniguns and HMGs.


Things that would be neat to try
  • Add more custom guns instead of removing the modded M16. Not suitable for a general config, but might make for a fun one.
  • The Scout is always perfectly accurate but has its magazine size reduced.
  • Remove witches.
  • Remove spitter. All other specials can spit with M3 at the cost of their life.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 01:39:01 pm by Moscow »

Blakee

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2014, 01:41:59 pm »
For your config, dude.. Just remove glows. Change the scene.. It is time for someone to have the balls to introduce a No glows competitive cfg in North America and make people play it.


like zeon said this totally alienates people with no mics. plus, the l4d2 community has already shown they don't like drastic change incredibly quickly. i think you should find an idea, and try to slowly incorporate it into your config. let people get a feel for it. i promise, eventually, they'll get used to it.

Could you post a complete list of the config's changes from promod? I know someone explained them to me at one point, but I don't have the convo saved anywhere. Anyway, here's a list of stuff I've wanted in promod and would be cool to see in compfogl.

Things I actually want
  • Provide survivors with two sets of pills each upon exiting the saferoom. There's a pub mod that makes pipe bombs usable twice, so you could probably just lift the code from that. i don't know how i feel about this but it's interesting.
  • Pills now provide 40 temporary health and don't begin decaying for a short amount of time. (Maybe the time it would take for 10 temp health to decay normally?) This whole thing would probably need to be tweaked to a different amount or changed to some other downside. Just something to offset the initial eight sets of pills. i like this.
  • Spawn two melees, one deagle, and an infinite pistol in each saferoom. this too.
  • Remove all pill and secondary weapon spawns outside of the saferoom. and this.
    ----
  • !current percentage changed to work with !tank percentage better. please
  • The AI tank can't move before a player takes control. it can move?
  • Block the AI tank from climbing things without using a ladder. YES
  • Block the AI tank from pounding on downed survivors. I don't know if this and the previous one are doable, but they're not terribly important either way. YES
  • AI specials are kicked immediately unless capping a survivor. no
  • Reduce the damage the scout deals to tanks. maybe.
    ----
  • Spit damage changed to a value everyone can agree on. 
  • All specials now work like the jockey and deal continuous damage instead of in bursts. Damage over time is unchanged. charger now defies laws of physics.
  • Godframes no longer apply to hittables. i thought this was in place already
    ----
  • Consistent spit spread. Supposedly not viable. i don't think this is possible.
  • Static shotgun spread. This was being tested at one point but I don't think it ever went anywhere. YES
    ----
  • Limit melee weapons to two or decrease all of their swing speeds. why.
  • Limit deagle to one. two deagles is a very bad idea so +1
  • I don't remember if your config had it or not, but without tank slowdown the two uzi limit is unnecessary.

----
  • Remove modded m16. PLEASE.
  • REMOVE M2 TELEPORTING YOUR SPECIAL GHOST TO THE SURVIVORS. I've sacced so many hits because of this and everyone I've asked about it hates it too. i don't know if this is removable but if it is change it to a diff button pls.
  • Remove natural horde. +1
  • Remove bile. it's different and adds more strategy tbh. i like it.
  • Remove propane/oxy. no.
  • Block/nerf to death miniguns and HMGs. like anyone uses them. only time i've used them was on dead air and i skeeted a hittable out of the air. didn't change anything everyone just laughed.

Things that would be neat to try
  • Add more custom guns instead of removing the modded M16. Not suitable for a general config, but might make a fun one. maybe.
  • The Scout is always perfectly accurate but has its magazine size reduced. NO
  • Remove witches. NO
  • Remove spitter. All other specials can spit with M3 at the cost of their life. how did you come up with this no



i gave my unasked-for opinion on all of them that aren't outrageous :')

Kissme

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2014, 01:42:21 pm »
I really hope people don't lose sight of what the competitive config is meant to be.  The config is meant to remove randomness from the game and hopefully end with a product that encourages tighter SI and Survivor play on an even playing field.

I say this because if this turns into some DLR type thing, I honestly don't know what my next move will be.  I'm interested in seeing what Visor has planned and I hope he does justice to what Jacob has given us thus far with his concepts and ideas.

Machiavellus

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2014, 02:02:12 pm »
I've always planned to make every effort to keep this config as organized as possible. For the distribution packages and etc, I agree 100% and that can and will all be done but first I want to make sure that if I put a lot of effort into this people will actually play it.

As far as "needless things like propane bile etc" I'm split on that decision, because I am all for the concept that LESS is not better. Things were originally taken out because there weren't viable ways to balance them. As is, this config has an M16 that is a mid-ground between the SMG and the SUZI. The Mac-10 still being the best "machine gun" The main argument I hear against it once people realize that it's not an actual M16 and it is balanced to be on par with the SMGs is that it's "pointless" but variety is something this game lacks. Of course it's really difficult to make guns different without one being objectively better, but I still feel as though the variety is something this game could use.

I don't like the idea of the natural hordes at all, and as they are in 4.0.1 I agree that it's completely broken. It may not be a lost cause but it's not high on my priority list. Hittable weight is already back to what it was originally. And the updates to 4.0.1 that are objectively good (IE blocking inaccessable pill spawns) are added as well. But before I can focus on an organized dev cycle, releases, and proper distribution, I need to find a level of balance that is found to be acceptable within both the upper-tier tournament king teams, and the mid-tier pug-all-dayers. It's only me, three team-mates and a few newer lower tier people that hang in my mumble to do immediate testing, and then it's off to pugging. I feel like both are valid chances to test, but I also need to see how utterly top-tier play would work on such a config to truly know how acceptable everything is. I don't want any hand-holding, and I don't want the pug community to feel as though it's inaccessable.

Once I can observe a balanced level of play for both mid and high, I would also like to make a much more "newbie friendly" version for L2L IF ITS DESIRED.

I could do all this for myself and have a bit of fun, but I feel my time would be more valuable spent working with the community on what they want and need. And it's not going to work out through simple forum polls and posts. A day must be set for reputable players and/or prior devs to meet and discuss IF people are open to adopting this config. And that doesn't mean once it's released we never speak of it again, it means before any future release is made public it must once again go through the same cycle of basic testing. Pug testing. Then observation and discussion between devs and reputable players, if we ever hope to have the organization, professionalism, gameplay, and balance that we all seem to be at a loss for.
This game would be perfect if only we removed everything from it and installed CS instead.

Machiavellus

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2014, 02:34:30 pm »
I'd also like to point out. That this is not supposed to be going in the direction of some DLR NONSENSE. My GOALS are competitive BALANCE. Yes I added an M16. Does it break the balance? No. People are just uncomfortable with the thought of it, and resist change. Another instance of balance changing is the pumpshotgun, which has had it's spread decreased so that it's more closely on par with the chrome and not a gun that people tend to avoid. There IS tank slowdown. It is just mitigated in different ways than other configs have done.

As of now.

Scout as it is in EQ is present.

An M16 that is a complete mid-ground between SMG and SUZI is added for variety. It is not over-powered. There is no plausible reason to take it out besides it being unnecessary. And if that's how you feel about it, then I might as well remove the SMG and the pump shotgun as well, because they're unnecessary.

Spit does 3 damage per tick and god frames are close to what they are in 4.0 You are rewarded for your spit.

3 pills. 1 adren. Can spawn out of saferoom.

Deagles are limited to two as of now, but will probably be changed back to one, as the original change was made when my goal was just to make a config to play with my friends and I was tired of fighting over who got the deagle. >_>

UZI TYPE WEAPONS this includes the m16 do 90% damage to tank and are limited to two. This provides 20% less slowdown for the tank.

The tank is ten units FASTER than the survivors. However even one survivor with only a shotgun can slow him down enough to kite him UNTIL he has to reload, as soon as you stop shooting him he will catch you.

Smokers tongues pull faster to require more precise reaction time to shut down a smoker, and to allow the smoker to set up SI hits better.

The smoker damage has also been changed. I could list off values but the smoker appears to do damage differently than the jockey or hunter and thus the values aren't exactly reflective of the actual damage output and the speed of the output. To put it simply, Smokers tend to do more damage if they are not cleared quickly putting them more on par with the other SI. This makes the "Ignore the smoker until everything else is dead tactic" pretty much not a tactic. Just a bad decision. The tongue has also been made so that it is now more difficult to juke smoker tongue by simple strafing back and forth beside a pole. Simply put. Shoot the smoker or you're going to take damage just like with every other SI.

The pumpshotgun has had it's spread slightly decreased to make it much more on par with the chrome shotgun. I think most people will still prefer the chrome, and it is probably objectively better because chrome has less pellets, and each pellet does more. But the pumpshotgun is a worthy enough gun to not avoid picking it up.

Witch Aggro radius increased to 500 as per EQ, and all claw swipes (including spitter jockey charger hunter boomer) are increased ever so slightly. It's only significant enough that drawing a witch over an object might get you slapped in the face, and while whiffing a cr0wn and backing off, you're much less likely to get the witch to whiff (although she still does if you're quick enough.)

Until someone comes up with a completely reasonable explanation for taking the M16 out I really don't plan on doing it. All I hear is "TAKE IT OUT" and the occasional "WELL IF ITS NOT BETTER THAN THE SUZI ITS POINTLESS SO JUST GET RID OF IT" I want to hear a 100% valid reason that it doesn't belong in competitive L4D.

// M16 nerf //
confogl_addcvar ammo_assaultrifle_max 600
sm_weapon rifle damage 24
sm_weapon rifle bullets 1
sm_weapon rifle clipsize 50
sm_weapon rifle spreadpershot .30
sm_weapon rifle maxspread 35
sm_weapon rifle spreaddecay 6
sm_weapon rifle minduckingspread .6
sm_weapon rifle minstandspread 1
sm_weapon rifle minairspread 2
sm_weapon rifle maxmovespread 3.3
sm_weapon rifle penlayers 2
sm_weapon rifle penpower 35
sm_weapon rifle charpenmaxdist 0
sm_weapon rifle range 2300
sm_weapon rifle rangemod .85
sm_weapon rifle tankdamagemult .9

Those are the stats of the M16. They are nowhere near what they are in vanilla. And they don't make the gun outclass anything drastically. I'm all for TWEAKING the stats if someone can point out something I've flubbed however.

Pretty much with all of your suggestions, I need you to back them up with a logical and valid WHY it should be changed. Every change I made I put a lot of thought into. Not for shits and giggles, but to produce a config that isn't exactly promod or EQ, but is still as balanced as L4D can be.
This game would be perfect if only we removed everything from it and installed CS instead.

Visor

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2014, 02:37:54 pm »
Chill guys, don't force me to go all fig over you... Apart from that, nice thread, nice read, I like it. Would be interesting to see where it goes, save for the shit talk of course.

And yeah Kissme, I'm excited about becoming the new lead dev for Promod. I might even go as far as to say that it managed to partially bring back some of my enthusiasm. It's a feeling I haven't experienced for a long while for this game.
$10 says you aren't anywhere near a controlling position of the L4D3 scene in any continent when it happens.

Thing is he does what he wants, cause his able to and we are letting him do that. He abuses hes place and power in this community and people like me get banned for no reason. Only thing visor wants is more and more control so he can do what ever he wants.

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2014, 02:38:46 pm »

// M16 nerf //
confogl_addcvar ammo_assaultrifle_max 600
sm_weapon rifle damage 24
sm_weapon rifle bullets 1
sm_weapon rifle clipsize 50
sm_weapon rifle spreadpershot .30
sm_weapon rifle maxspread 35
sm_weapon rifle spreaddecay 6
sm_weapon rifle minduckingspread .6
sm_weapon rifle minstandspread 1
sm_weapon rifle minairspread 2
sm_weapon rifle maxmovespread 3.3
sm_weapon rifle penlayers 2
sm_weapon rifle penpower 35
sm_weapon rifle charpenmaxdist 0
sm_weapon rifle range 2300
sm_weapon rifle rangemod .85
sm_weapon rifle tankdamagemult .9


I know there are metagame defenders in this community but actually having to get used to a «new weapon» that sits somewhere between the uzi and the silenced is an interesting move. I hope "opinion makers" don't complain about players having to get used to the new damage and how long it takes to kill an SI.

Moscow

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Re: Compfogl?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2014, 02:44:03 pm »
Responses to responses.

Could you post a complete list of the config's changes from promod? I know someone explained them to me at one point, but I don't have the convo saved anywhere. Anyway, here's a list of stuff I've wanted in promod and would be cool to see in compfogl.

Things I actually want

    Provide survivors with two sets of pills each upon exiting the saferoom. There's a pub mod that makes pipe bombs usable twice, so you could probably just lift the code from that. i don't know how i feel about this but it's interesting.
    Pills now provide 40 temporary health and don't begin decaying for a short amount of time. (Maybe the time it would take for 10 temp health to decay normally?) This whole thing would probably need to be tweaked to a different amount or changed to some other downside. Just something to offset the initial eight sets of pills. i like this.
    Spawn two melees, one deagle, and an infinite pistol in each saferoom. this too.
    Remove all pill and secondary weapon spawns outside of the saferoom. and this.
    ----
    !current percentage changed to work with !tank percentage better. please
    The AI tank can't move before a player takes control. it can move? It's only got a second or so, but yes. I played a pug recently where my team's early tank on parish 3 climbed the bus and took a ton of chip while the other team's just stood there until the player got it.
    Block the AI tank from climbing things without using a ladder. YES
    Block the AI tank from pounding on downed survivors. I don't know if this and the previous one are doable, but they're not terribly important either way. YES
    AI specials are kicked immediately unless capping a survivor. no This was because of how randomly they can behave and some of the weird attributes of jockey and charger bots. Half the time they just get stuck somewhere anyway.
    Reduce the damage the scout deals to tanks. maybe. Yeah, I should have put this in the other section. The only thing I dislike about having a scout is how much different tank fights are when the tank can't maintain sight without eating sniper spam. Maybe I just haven't played enough EQ.
    ----
    Spit damage changed to a value everyone can agree on.
    All specials now work like the jockey and deal continuous damage instead of in bursts. Damage over time is unchanged. charger now defies laws of physics.
    Godframes no longer apply to hittables. i thought this was in place already I thought it was too. Might have got broken or something since I've seen hittables go through survivors in certain recovery animations.
    ----
    Consistent spit spread. Supposedly not viable. i don't think this is possible.
    Static shotgun spread. This was being tested at one point but I don't think it ever went anywhere. YES
    ----
    Limit melee weapons to two or decrease all of their swing speeds. why. They've always struck me as kinda brainless for how much damage they can put out. All the actually skillful things melees can be used for would still be just as possible with a higher cooldown. I'd prefer having a limit though.
    Limit deagle to one. two deagles is a very bad idea so +1
    I don't remember if your config had it or not, but without tank slowdown the two uzi limit is unnecessary.


----

    Remove modded m16. PLEASE.
    REMOVE M2 TELEPORTING YOUR SPECIAL GHOST TO THE SURVIVORS. I've sacced so many hits because of this and everyone I've asked about it hates it too. i don't know if this is removable but if it is change it to a diff button pls. It's not that way in vanilla so I assume it can be removed.
    Remove natural horde. +1
    Remove bile. it's different and adds more strategy tbh. i like it.
    Remove propane/oxy. no.
    Block/nerf to death miniguns and HMGs. like anyone uses them. only time i've used them was on dead air and i skeeted a hittable out of the air. didn't change anything everyone just laughed. The amount of damage and slowdown they do to tanks is insane. I've seen the No Mercy finale one used a few times and it destroyed the tank. It's the tank's fault for getting in it's way I guess, but having something that powerful remain in the game feels wrong.

Things that would be neat to try

    Add more custom guns instead of removing the modded M16. Not suitable for a general config, but might make a fun one. maybe.
    The Scout is always perfectly accurate but has its magazine size reduced. NO Because it would be too strong or too weak? I'd love to use a sniper like that.
    Remove witches. NO
    Remove spitter. All other specials can spit with M3 at the cost of their life. how did you come up with this no
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 03:15:44 pm by Moscow »

 

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