L4DNation

Competitive => Confogl & Miscellaneous => Topic started by: sinclair on May 15, 2017, 11:37:52 pm

Title: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: sinclair on May 15, 2017, 11:37:52 pm
I feel like it would be good to have a thread to give feedback on Apex specifically.

il go first:

I know people complained about the shotgun being OP when you first launched it but i thought it was okay. The suzi is way more OP in acemod for the sole reason it has the additional benefit of damage at high range on the tank, something a shotgun will never have.

now it just seems like its not strong enough. in a config with only one set of pills, no melee weapons and hordes / boomers being so strong, i think the shotgun buff was warranted. sometimes i wonder how im still alive (https://clips.twitch.tv/TsundereProtectiveCurlewBabyRage)

other thoughts, um i dont think having a late tank on dt4 is a good idea with that infinite horde. played it today and we got it, it didnt come to it but i would assume if you stop moving when it spawns the horde eventually stops like parish 2. even so as soon as you kill the tank it restarts and even a single incap could be enough to wipe with the amount of horde that comes. again i havent played it enough, i just agree with the no holdout for horde like l4d1, just think this particular tank spawn should be blocked.

charger scratches and multi's should probably do 8 dmg  or at least 7. multi's probably 10 because you really should eat a big penalty for getting multi'd (Even though it is probably the first persons fault, still someone has to pay, thats how life works)


anyway i just want to say i love this config. probably the most enjoyable config ive played since early promod when we were just getting used to the no hr dynamic. real fast paced config, less baiting, more fun on SI and Survivor. post any other feedback here.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Twisted on May 16, 2017, 01:30:07 am
Shotguns are near useless now, they were a bit OP in v1 but it was extremely fun.

Also hordes needs to spawn during tanks tbh, you can cheese so much tanks/events

For example: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/144227088?t=01h05m07s (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/144227088?t=01h05m07s)
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: hib on May 16, 2017, 04:43:05 am
1. Add 1  melee weapon with a limit to 1 survivor (without blades, e.g. baseball bat, cricket bat) for "alley" type choke points
2. Give shotgun slightly more damage (just a tiny bit)
3. Charger punches to 8 dmg (i see why you would put less damage, so people don't pull and punch a target due to limited amount of pills but if teams are together, this shouldn't be an issue)


As of now, this config is more infected sided. I'd really enjoy playing on a balanced config (promod got it right, but it wasn't perfect). I'm sure you can make the essential changes to make this mod great, it has a lot of potential.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: sinclair on May 16, 2017, 06:25:04 am
Also hordes needs to spawn during tanks tbh, you can cheese so much tanks/events

For example: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/144227088?t=01h05m07s (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/144227088?t=01h05m07s)

what ur describing, i dont think that this is anything special with apex. im pretty sure this will happen no matter what config you are playing (even vanilla) as long as they arent finite events like acemod and zonemod. i remember doing this strat back in the days before acemod (promod or meta) where there would never spawn horde there so people always opened it during tank.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Dusty on May 16, 2017, 06:25:42 am
Personal opinion feedback.

- I think 2 pills would be a nice change.
- Pistols being a single pick up so the team has to each grab their own or something would be a nice change if possible. Infinite melee and pistol spawns have always been kinda lame
- The slowdown in apex is 28%? Anyone know the number on vanilla/promod slowdown? Maybe I've been gone from slowdown so long I don't remember how atrocious it was, but could maybe be tuned down?
- More magnum spawns perhaps?
- Uzi is still extremely powerful, with tank damage buff and slowdown, the tank feels more helpless than ever IMO. I think either small shotgun buff, or small uzi nerf still would be nice to equal them out.
- Maybe bile-bomb? I actually liked bilebomb as a throwable because it had some pros and cons.
- Quad-caps still random, sometimes proper sack order still ends with another boomer.

Quote
Also hordes needs to spawn during tanks tbh, you can cheese so much tanks/events

For example: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/144227088?t=01h05m07s (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/144227088?t=01h05m07s)

You ran past a tank in a pug because he didn't leave hittables, I think that speaks to pug play, not the config.


Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: fig newtons on May 16, 2017, 12:47:35 pm
- Maybe bile-bomb? I actually liked bilebomb as a throwable because it had some pros and cons.
Yeah, this. With the promod bile bomb we tried to make a throwable that was a double-edged sword, and I think we succeeded.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: sinclair on May 16, 2017, 01:23:30 pm
Yeah, this. With the promod bile bomb we tried to make a throwable that was a double-edged sword, and I think we succeeded.
+1. if something can be as situational as the bile it should stay in the game.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Sir on May 16, 2017, 04:18:04 pm
I know people complained about the shotgun being OP when you first launched it but i thought it was okay. The suzi is way more OP in acemod for the sole reason it has the additional benefit of damage at high range on the tank, something a shotgun will never have.

now it just seems like its not strong enough. in a config with only one set of pills, no melee weapons and hordes / boomers being so strong, i think the shotgun buff was warranted.

I'm working on the config actively, which means that I'm attempting to find a good middle ground.
Unfortunately, this might also cause unintended effects.

Version 1.0.5 should be a good middle ground for the shotgun damage in general usage.

]
other thoughts, um i dont think having a late tank on dt4 is a good idea with that infinite horde.
I just agree with the no holdout for horde like l4d1, just think this particular tank spawn should be blocked.

Agreed, v1.0.5 has it blocked.

charger scratches and multi's should probably do 8 dmg  or at least 7. multi's probably 10 because you really should eat a big penalty for getting multi'd

Charger punches to 8 dmg (i see why you would put less damage, so people don't pull and punch a target due to limited amount of pills but if teams are together, this shouldn't be an issue

I disagree on this one, I think 6 is fine and punishing enough.
The whole intention of lowering scratch/punch damage is to enforce proper teamwork and making landing on targets much more rewarding than pinata/scratch the high pinger style kind of play.

- The slowdown in apex is 28%? Anyone know the number on vanilla/promod slowdown? Maybe I've been gone from slowdown so long I don't remember how atrocious it was, but could maybe be tuned down?

- Uzi is still extremely powerful, with tank damage buff and slowdown, the tank feels more helpless than ever IMO. I think either small shotgun buff, or small uzi nerf still would be nice to equal them out.

The custom slowdown works a lot different than the native slowdown system, you don't get slowed down to a crawl by 1-2 uzi's.

The regular uzi only does 20 damage compared to the Silenced Uzi which does 25 on everything.
The Uzi is buffed to do a maximum of 23 on the Tank, which is still weaker than the Silenced Uzi without any buffs.
This weapon is definitely not too powerful right now.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: sinclair on May 16, 2017, 05:10:32 pm
slowdown is good in this config. yes you have dualies usually and thats your one option but that leaves you defenseless against SI. same thing with uzi's.

so uzi is strategical like it was in l4d1.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: NF on May 16, 2017, 09:50:49 pm
Am I the only one who thought the default guns + static spread were fine? aka Promod guns. Both the shotgun and uzi were used fairly equally and neither felt too OP or UP. Uzi slowdown on tank was sort of a problem but that's a different issue which had been solved anyway.

Trying to rebalance them from scratch seems like trying to reinvent the wheel.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: sinclair on May 16, 2017, 09:53:56 pm
Am I the only one who thought the default guns + static spread were fine? aka Promod guns. Both the shotgun and uzi were used fairly equally and neither felt too OP or UP.

Trying to rebalance them from scratch seems like trying to reinvent the wheel.
i agree completely, but i think these guns fit the config. the roto shotgun. man all i can say is if this was the game that was put out in 2009 then a LOT of the l4d1 players would have stuck around. i truly think spitter sucks. u get 2-2's maybe half the time and bad setups for bad locations all the time as well (boomer spitter jockey smoker anyone?).

reflux was good but man i really like apex better. i say give it a chance, playing with the roto shotgun is a lot of fun. i think the lack of pills, strength of the boomer horde and lack of melee's balance it out and force you to clear your teammates more than you would say in acemod.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: ElusivΣ on May 16, 2017, 10:53:36 pm
i agree completely, but i think these guns fit the config. the roto shotgun. man all i can say is if this was the game that was put out in 2009 then a LOT of the l4d1 players would have stuck around. i truly think spitter sucks. u get 2-2's maybe half the time and bad setups for bad locations all the time as well (boomer spitter jockey smoker anyone?).

reflux was good but man i really like apex better. i say give it a chance, playing with the roto shotgun is a lot of fun. i think the lack of pills, strength of the boomer horde and lack of melee's balance it out and force you to clear your teammates more than you would say in acemod.

The rotoblin shotgun is like a rail gun from quake. it's fun but not practical outside of the rotoblin config imo.

-mostly everything dusty said I agree with and also NF too.
-maybe some more stripper additions to dark carnival if possible cuz the map is boring as fuck honestly.
-implement the asian plugins like tetris and wall climbing so I cannot kill myself during ready up.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Ramirez™ on May 16, 2017, 11:09:05 pm
Keep silent jockeys, make 3 jockeys an option instead of 3 hunters, seriously hunters are so loud how can you ever except to land on anyone with +$5 headphones??? Jockeys add the element of surprise that makes survivor play so exciting.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: hib on May 17, 2017, 04:06:48 am
Keep silent jockeys, make 3 jockeys an option instead of 3 hunters, seriously hunters are so loud how can you ever except to land on anyone with +$5 headphones??? Jockeys add the element of surprise that makes survivor play so exciting.

or just allow you to get double jockeys, ahaha, 2 hunters + 2 jockeys, sound OP and fun xD
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Ramirez™ on May 19, 2017, 05:05:14 pm
Add back female boomers
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: hib on May 20, 2017, 05:50:14 am
Keep silent jockeys, make 3 jockeys an option instead of 3 hunters, seriously hunters are so loud how can you ever except to land on anyone with +$5 headphones??? Jockeys add the element of surprise that makes survivor play so exciting.

Ramirez™: give the jockeys the ability to jump, and chargers the ability to curve slightly and pick up survivors on the ground  8)
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Sir on May 20, 2017, 06:18:06 am
Add back female boomers

Bit late on that meme :(

Quote from: Changelog 1.7 - Before your stupid post
-Hunter Limit set back to a limit to 2.
- Uzi Slowdown decreased slightly.
- Maximum Tank slowdown decreased from 28% to 25%
- Lowered the SI Bot kick Delay to 3 (from 10)
- Due to popular demand, female boomers are back and now have a 50% chance of spawning instead of 25% (Vanilla)
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Dusty on May 31, 2017, 12:50:59 am
I think never-ending events that you have to push into the spawn need a tuning down. Like carni 4, passifice tunnel. Im sure there are more but can't think of them currently.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: hib on May 31, 2017, 01:59:56 am
I think never-ending events that you have to push into the spawn need a tuning down. Like carni 4, passifice tunnel. Im sure there are more but can't think of them currently.

Those events are the only reason why I'd like a melee being added, either that or slightly less horde at once.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Adam on May 31, 2017, 10:18:38 am
I think never-ending events that you have to push into the spawn need a tuning down. Like carni 4, passifice tunnel. Im sure there are more but can't think of them currently.

^ This Also death toll map 4, sucks when you ace a tank only to get blasted at a endless event and lose half the bonus you had coming into it. I remember talking to hib about having a blunt or cuttable melee weapon depending on what people would rather, spawn infront of every single endless event. So you'd only have it for the end of the map..Most of the endless events are near the end of the map so the melee wouldn't have impact on anything but the event. And the parish map 2 event is perfectly fine without a melee. Not sure if theres any other endless events that aren't near the end of the map.

Im just throwing ideas out there, there are different ways we can tune down the events like dusty said, and not go the full easy route and make them "finite"
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: ElusivΣ on May 31, 2017, 11:45:14 am
"having a blunt"

APEX 4.20 update can't wait
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: fig newtons on May 31, 2017, 01:12:35 pm
f2 to adding melee weapons
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: sinclair on May 31, 2017, 01:18:47 pm
just make dark carnival 4 and death toll 4 finite. as many have said its impossible to secure a hb no matter how much hb you have, if the infected have a quad cap and infinite horde at the dk4 corner,  it makes no difference if u crawled there or had 4 greens.

NOT parish 2 and not dark carnival 3 and not BH2 though. those are fine as is. just the end of map ones like dk4, dt4 and possibly bh4
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Dusty on May 31, 2017, 01:49:05 pm
No to melee weapons, because it's more OP at killing common than a fucking pipe bomb. Booms are actually meaningful again. You'd basically send one person in the front to mow down the entire horde while 3 people have free reign to shoot everything.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: ElusivΣ on May 31, 2017, 01:57:46 pm
just make dark carnival 4 and death toll 4 finite. as many have said its impossible to secure a hb no matter how much hb you have, if the infected have a quad cap and infinite horde at the dk4 corner,  it makes no difference if u crawled there or had 4 greens.

NOT parish 2 and not dark carnival 3 and not BH2 though. those are fine as is. just the end of map ones like dk4, dt4 and possibly bh4

this sounds good.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: World of Noise on May 31, 2017, 03:55:53 pm
Please no to melees. The reason I like this config so much is because of their absence.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: hib on May 31, 2017, 10:57:53 pm
Add 1 melee or spawn less horde coming at once, keep it infinite, just not as quickly

Also, the only reason why I would add a melee is because there are certain choke points that kinda need it, example: dark carnival 2 alley way
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: ElusivΣ on May 31, 2017, 11:45:39 pm
Add 1 melee or spawn less horde coming at once, keep it infinite, just not as quickly

Also, the only reason why I would add a melee is because there are certain choke points that kinda need it, example: dark carnival 2 alley way

The alleyway you just look up and around at typical SI spawns points and team kill shit bro ez :)
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Sir on June 01, 2017, 10:11:03 am
Just to clarify, I'm very open to ideas and changes, but there are certain things that I won't change as I feel they're the core of the config.
One of those is having no melees, so while I will definitely look into making it more manageable as Survivors, I will not be adding Melees back.

Really appreciate the feedback guys, motivates me on making changes. :)

just make dark carnival 4 and death toll 4 finite. as many have said its impossible to secure a hb no matter how much hb you have, if the infected have a quad cap and infinite horde at the dk4 corner,  it makes no difference if u crawled there or had 4 greens.

NOT parish 2 and not dark carnival 3 and not BH2 though. those are fine as is. just the end of map ones like dk4, dt4 and possibly bh4

I will not be making changes to horde on a map to map basis, it's much more effective to have a solution that's good for most maps and decent for some.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: THEE_Detective on June 03, 2017, 07:38:04 pm
8k hp tanks when
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: hib on June 03, 2017, 08:32:04 pm
The alleyway you just look up and around at typical SI spawns points and team kill shit bro ez :)

what about alleyways that you cant look up, smart guy.
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: fig newtons on June 04, 2017, 12:36:14 pm
Put back shooting on ladders
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: ElusivΣ on June 04, 2017, 01:54:01 pm
what about alleyways that you cant look up, smart guy.


WTF you say to me nigga :D?

(http://38.media.tumblr.com/2f7a588505fba16c9a304cb4464e6a3f/tumblr_nawfiqzLqV1s8gci9o1_500.gif)

@Hib
Word you're right.  I wonder if it's possible with a plugin to like make melees have a certain amount of swings and then they get dropped by the survivor and become unusable.  Ex: 30 swings and that's it. 


Put back shooting on ladders


Put back the pipes on the parish sewer choke or shooting on ladders is ok i guess
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: Dusty on June 06, 2017, 01:02:59 am
Bring back ladder shooting, I'm not sure why this was removed, I think this mechanic was a great change
because 90% of ladder chokes were absolute butt-fuck fests. (Dark carni 2 was actually a decently skilled
ladder choke, but can't remember any others.)

I think the bonus tank HP is a nice change.

It feels kind of shitty how the meta is, take shotgun for all of map, and take 4 uzi for tank if possible cause
of lul slowdown. Makes you kind of realize just how ridiculous slowdown still is. Not sure if people agree with
me or see it the same way I do but I'd love to hear more opinions.

I miss having suzi and chrome, While its true that chrome and suzi were usually just upgraded counterparts,
I think it would have been nicer for them to each have different strength/weakness other than disabling them.
Also just not having the choice/variety feels bad.

Put in promod bilebomb. Would actually be a great alternative instead of nerfing horde. It's a well balanced
throwable overall, and with good play you could get through infinite chokes with a good bilebomb usage,
without having to nerf horde and/or add melees.

Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: sinclair on June 06, 2017, 01:17:41 am
+1 for bile bomb and some sort of nerf for ladders.
but keep weapons and slowdown how it is. uzi is great and situational. if ur taking uzi's if the hunters play it right you will get capped. taking shotgun allows you to shut spawns down easier but at the price of not being able to slow the tank down as much unless you whip out your dualies, but then you are basically 100% capable. infected gameplay is real nice during tanks in apex for this balance imo. tanks that are crap in acemod have potential in this, i feel like any tank, even dark carnival 1 saferoom, can wipe if infected play it right. no need to change something thats not broken
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: hib on June 06, 2017, 03:33:14 am
Limit Uzis to 3. Promod Uzis got it right with the slowdown, as well as the tanks movement.
Replace Uzi with Silenced SMG, and Pump with Chrome, I'm tired of listening to shitty gun sounds.

I really don't like ladder shooting, but do what you please with that.

I was talking to a few players and really dislike the absense of the spitter. The game is rush based with no type of punishment. The game is literally made harder for the special infected. I like the idea that people need to communicate more to land quads, which is positive, but I hate the fact that people will sack their boomer and then wait a whole hit to try to land a quad, only to fail and have survivors make it with a huge chunk of bonus.

The addition of the 300 hp is good, but it's really dumb when it comes to close quarter fights, you limit survivors to fight tanks at selected places instead of being creative and finding new ways to do so.

Lastly, the game really sucks without melees... Just keep the damage on the melees how it originally was, but make them swing slower so they aren't spammable. Keep the pills to a minimum, I have brought this up and you're one of the only people to have done so, I praise you for that.

Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: ElusivΣ on June 06, 2017, 07:38:36 am
limit the uzis to 2 even instead of 3 if the slowdown values are gonna be staying constant. If that's the case, 2 shotgun, 2 uzi team would be optimal. Nevertheless, slowdown still needs to be reduced a lil in apex if 4 uzi is a option imo.

@Shade
I'm pretty sure your logic and thought process is geared towards pug play when you state your opinions.  Pugs are mixed skill level so they can't be compared to good team scrims or high level tournament play.  High level and tournament play should be the primary way to mold a config instead of pug play imo(acemod felt like a pug config cuz of the suzi to me).  You should be looking at things conceptually like if 4 "good" players have the capability of slowdown, what can be the compared outcome of a specific tank to a pug team fighting the same tank?
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: fig newtons on June 07, 2017, 03:06:43 pm
When hib wanted to put melees back in the config

(http://upload.fopedush.com/malathion/reverse.gif)
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: ElusivΣ on June 07, 2017, 03:12:43 pm
When hib wanted to put melees back in the config

We should just remove every weapon from the game and just give the survivors four combat knives.  And btw don't dis my boy's feedback again fig or else *cock hammer back on magnum* :)
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: yams on June 07, 2017, 11:23:40 pm
cock hammer
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: fig newtons on June 13, 2017, 11:23:56 am
I always thought hittables should kill downed survivors more slowly than they do, and tank ground and pound should kill them faster than it does

Edit: I guess that's general config feedback more than apex feedback but whatever
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: hib on June 13, 2017, 03:05:05 pm
I always thought hittables should kill downed survivors more slowly than they do, and tank ground and pound should kill them faster than it does

Edit: I guess that's general config feedback more than apex feedback but whatever

XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD         XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD      XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
XD XDXD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD          XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD      XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
XD XD                                                                             XD XD                                 XD XD
XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD                         XD XD                                 XD XD
XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD                         XD XD                                 XD XD                XD XD XD XD XD XD
XD XD                                                                             XD XD                                 XD XD                 XD XD XD XD XD XD
XD XD                                                                             XD XD                                 XD XD                                      XD XD
XD XD                                                                             XD XD                                 XD XD                                      XD XD
XD XD                                                               XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD     XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
XD XD                                                               XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD     XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD

So..you're saying that a car should kill slower? I thought we were keeping this semi realistic...
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: yams on June 14, 2017, 06:56:51 pm
XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD         XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD      XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
XD XDXD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD          XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD      XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
XD XD                                                                             XD XD                                 XD XD
XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD                         XD XD                                 XD XD
XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD                         XD XD                                 XD XD                XD XD XD XD XD XD
XD XD                                                                             XD XD                                 XD XD                 XD XD XD XD XD XD
XD XD                                                                             XD XD                                 XD XD                                      XD XD
XD XD                                                                             XD XD                                 XD XD                                      XD XD
XD XD                                                               XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD     XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
XD XD                                                               XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD     XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD

So..you're saying that a car should kill slower? I thought we were keeping this semi realistic...

i'm quoting u simply because im impressed u put this much effort in to disagree with someone in such a fantastic way
Title: Re: Apex Feedback Thread
Post by: totallynotbravo on June 15, 2017, 01:44:22 pm
YYYY                    YYYY                                        YYYY                               YYYYYYYY                                   YYYY YYYY
 YYYY                  YYYY                                    YYYY    YYYY                         YYYY  YYYY                                YYYY  YYYY
    YYYY            YYYY                                    YYYY           YYYY                     YYYY    YYYY                             YYYY   YYYY
         YYYY    YYYY                                     YYYY               YYYY                   YYYY      YYYY                          YYYY    YYYY
              YYYY                                          YYYSUCKADICKYYYYYY                  YYYY       YYYY                       YYYY      YYYY
              YYYY                                         YYYY                   YYYY                 YYYY         YYYY                    YYYY       YYYY
              YYYY                                         YYYY                   YYYY                 YYYY           YYYY               YYYY          YYYY
              YYYY                                         YYYY                   YYYY                 YYYY             YYYY           YYYY            YYYY
              YYYY                                         YYYY                   YYYY                 YYYY                 YYYY    YYYY               YYYY
              YYYY                                         YYYY                   YYYY                 YYYY                       YYYY                    YYYY




ummm....this took longer than expected to make.